Doctor Money Matters Ep 17: 
[0:00] Hello and welcome to the doctor Money Matters podcast the show where we discuss important Financial topics that would never covered in med school I’m your host dr. tarang Patel.

Tarang Patel — Intro Outro: 
[0:16] I want to wish everyone a Happy New Year sorry for the long Gap in episodes but I’ve been trying to promote the show a little bit more on various social media Outlets so.

[0:28] Please share the podcast with your friends colleagues and students it’s pretty easy to do particularly if you listen to it on the Apple podcast app where if you press the button with three little dots near the middle of the screen you can share it via.

[0:43] Text message Facebook WhatsApp Twitter however you want to share it.

[0:49] I recorded a bunch of podcast that I’ve been that haven’t been released yet so I’ll be releasing.
Those more frequently and will let you know via the Facebook group or Twitter or.
Any of my other social media Outlets when the episodes are out and I have some great guests scheduled to record soon including.

[1:09] Physician on fire and also an updated 2018 tax episode with Anjali jariwala who’s on our podcast previously discussing taxes in general.

[1:21] A couple things I want to mention before I start the interview with dr. Valerie Jones I wanted to address Bitcoin fever.

[1:30] Cryptocurrency is super hot right now and congrats to those who’ve made money or lots of money on its recent massive appreciation.
In my opinion I think the blockchain is revolutionary and will change the way we conduct business.

[1:48] No one coin is particularly more impressive than others and no one is established to mainstream a Bitcoin have been around the longest and has a little bit more recognition.

[2:00] There is no limit on what the number of coins are different types of cryptocurrencies that can be introduced and therefore no one knows if any of the current coins will be the ones that’ll be.

[2:12] I used as a mainstream type of business there may be room for many of these coins to.

[2:18] To work in in their own niches but I’m not sure that all of them will continue to hold the value that they currently have.

[2:25] I remember Mania Mania can be a good thing in terms of making a lot of money ask me ask Mark Cuban who sold broadcast.com in 1999 to Yahoo near the peak of the.
Dot-com bubble obviously you can also lose a lot of money so so just just be careful.

[2:44] In regards to the new tax changes most Physicians should see.

[2:52] Some increase in take-home pay although if you’re on the the coasts or an estate with the relatively High property tax burden you may.

[3:02] You may break even to in some small percentage may even pay a little bit more but for the most of you I would say continue to.

[3:12] Save more and use the tax savings to pay down any additional debt or a no increase your investment allocation.

[3:22] On a side note I was recently in a bit of a Twitter battle with an idiot Economist who Advocates slashing physician salaries.
As a way to reduce healthcare costs he wanted to bring in a significant number of foreign doctors and not that there’s anything wrong with foreign doctors but he wanted to bring in Doctors Without.

[3:45] Without requiring them to do any additional residency training as a way to bring down costs in my opinion this is short-sighted.
As positions salaries are only a small percentage of healthcare costs maybe about 8% and by increasing the number of doctors even by.
Doubling them you’re not going to do reduce the total cost of salaries on Healthcare you’ll just increase the number of people getting.

[4:10] The salaries.

[4:13] But regardless this type of idiot is a influential in policymaking and this is the kind of pressure that we’re going to continue to face in regards to Bringing Down health care costs.

[4:27] Savings and increasing your the speed at which you Achieve Financial Independence is going to be even more Paramount.

[4:34] So this brings me to Our Guest today dr. Valerie Jones in OBGYN physician who retired from medicine at the young age of 37.

[4:44] I’m not advocating retiring to any of you even if you Achieve Financial Independence but.

[4:49] With continued pressures that we face in healthcare and continued.

[4:56] Calls from idiots like this economist we’re going to have pressure and achieving Financial Independence sooner rather than later.

[5:04] Will make your life easier on with the show.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[5:11] Okay welcome to another episode of the doctor Money Matters podcast I guess today is.
Doctor Valerie Jones who writes on her own website OB doctor mom.com a lot of people have been talking about her article on Kevin MD where she wrote about retiring from her OB-GYN practice at the young age of 37.

[5:31] Doctor Jones welcome to the podcast.

Valerie Jones, Md: 
[5:34] Thank you thanks for having me on my site is to do it today.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[5:37] Alright I said just tell me a little bit about your background and where you went to med school and residency why you went into OBGYN.

Valerie Jones, Md: 
[5:45] Sure grew up actually in the South so and Louisiana,
for a good portion of my childhood but then moved to Virginia at the end of high school and so then go to the east coast girl for a while now went to medical school in Virginia at Eastern Virginia medical school and then residency,
I did at Johns Hopkins for OBGYN that was one of those people who always knew that I was going to be a physician.
Started out from as early as I can remember 5 years old saying I want to be an OB I want to deliver babies I got for some reason I just knew and I don’t know why I don’t I don’t have,
Terrence that are Physicians is not really something that I was around a whole lot I mean my father was an officer in the military he was in a medical type of career but he’s not a physician but it was just something that was always there,
and so he didn’t even all throughout high school and college that was always my plan and you would have wanted to do and I kind of set it at that to go to medical school and then.
OBGYN what’s the plan to and so you know when you go through,
third year of medical school rotations and everything else he is a few other things like radiology and neurology and I’m really stuck with me as much as OBGYN dead and so is kind of my past the whole way through and I got to tell you I definitely never had gone into this expecting to retire at 37 that was never my,
my plan was not what I had wanted to do and I want to make that very clear that you know if you want to retire early and you don’t,
going to Medicine looking to do that medicine realize that but I think maybe.
Other people don’t you know it’s just not a good way to do it if that’s your goal but life happens and that’s where I am now and it’s nice how it all worked out in the end.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[7:17] Yeah it’s funny you mention that school going through those rotations I kind of similar experience except that OBGYN was the first one I crossed off the list when I.

Valerie Jones, Md: 
[7:24] That is for a lot of people it’s like it’s either love it or hate it and I get it there’s a lot of good things behind it but there’s a lot of tough things as well too so.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[7:34] Absolutely absolutely you retired at a very young age so why.

Valerie Jones, Md: 
[7:45] Yeah so it was a couple of reasons.
The last several years I become a little bit more disillusioned with how Healthcare in general has been going I wrote about 11 the article that you mentioned on Kevin MD about how I’ve become pretty frustrated with how Physicians are kind of last on the list of,
actually dictating how Healthcare goes and we want to be advocates for patients in a lot of times we’re not able to do that and so,
getting pretty frustrated also with OBGYN it’s not an easy,
specialty have late hours and lot of call a lot of staying up all hours of the night now practice is a.
The concern of mine I never was sued you know it luckily but there was always something that was in the back of my mind in the back of everyone’s mind not just OBGYN but,
I think even more so in our field when things go poorly Haitian they would sometimes want to have an answer but they want to feel Vindicator have something.
But this really to blame but if you have a bad outcome for a baby that’s a tough,
tough thing to go through and so I think we see lawsuits more in our field even when all standards of medicine were carried through there was no.
There was really no language and sometimes the lawsuit will happen anyway and so then for Physicians to go through that is very stressful and I think everyone in OBGYN is really feeling that stressed there has been a whole lot done to kind of help us.
Out in that room so that was a part of it and then also you have 3 kids certainly was missing a lot with them but being on a very busy schedule,
and so and then I also had a health scare and that was actually what was the kind of Tipping Point for me.

[9:16] And I look back at it now is it being one of the best things that ever happened to me because you’re working and you’re working and you see your family when you can and you’re just going you don’t actually say stop,
let me see this is what I want to be doing with my life is this,
really am I in a good spot right now I might am I doing the things I want to is it it’s a silly me I so when I had this house scare it really stopped me in my tracks and I took a step back and I said.
What am I doing and why am I doing this and I think what happened was that my husband I actually became financially independent or we’re realizing that.

[9:56] We could actually both retire at this point if you wanted to and that’ll happen at the same time that I had the health scare and so it was kind of like a no-brainer at that point I said well.
I don’t need to be working now so why am I doing this and it’s at the right thing right now for myself or my family of the way the healthcare environment is so I really want to be doing this and so I needed to step away and inside retired and I don’t know that I’ll ever go back,
but honestly I’ll Never Say Never because,
foolish to think it’s foolish to say you’ll never do something because who knows I’m 37 I don’t think so though I don’t.
Been enjoying myself quite a bit since November when I retired and so that’s not the plan as of now.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[10:35] Okay you were seven years those residency right when you retired.

[10:40] Okay so how did you go about I mean just being a financial podcast how did you go about becoming.
Financially independent so quickly I mean that most most people from Medical School have loans that they’re paying off for it for such a long time. What what kind of steps did you take to increase.
The speed at which you were able to become financially independent.

Valerie Jones, Md: 
[11:01] Yeah you’re absolutely right I mean the amount of debt that medical students in Kearney I was just enormous and so it was a little bit different for everybody has their own story for me which seem to work for me,
was a couple of things one you know I didn’t have somebody pay my way through medical school so of course I had loans like everyone else.
But my medical school loans were probably less than average I would say just being completely transparent I think my medical school loans were about a hundred and thirty thousand and so that was you know because I didn’t take out for extras.

[11:32] People will because someone they have to but also a lot of time so I can see my friends taking out a lot of extra loans for,
vacation living expenses during medical school and I get it you know you want to have fun too but I was really really Frugal during medical school I mean. Do it didn’t go out a whole lot,
you know I just really kept the very minimum of what I could do a very small apartment and I got married the first year medical school and so my husband at the time did have a job he was just out of college though and so it wasn’t a high-paying job by any means but at least that way we didn’t have to take out.

[12:05] Loans for living expenses I certainly we couldn’t afford to pay for a tuition and so that was one thing that helped,
is the start out with a relatively low balance compared to what,
do a physician income senior with they’re coming out with and just having to do just tuition alone and we also were able to lock in I think it was 2.7 for the interest rate.
Lucky or not since that it happened at that time frame where I had to go to a good rate so that was something else I was going in my favor so that was the first that was keeping my medical school loans as it slow as I possibly could and locking a good rate.

[12:40] And then after that,
yeah right after Medical School residency lay loans are in forbearance initially but then as soon as I was able to start paying off those loans I would do it at the maximum that we could and not just the minimum that they would say oh this is what you have to do and so that was a big factor as well.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[12:59] Right I think that’s a key point because like you said you had to do a limb come during residency in a lot of people especially when they’re single or you know are mostly just.

[13:08] Not able to do much during residency except for the bare minimum so that’s definitely an advantage on your part that you were able to do that and definitely contributes to you know getting financially independent much quicker so.

[13:21] That’s very good.

[13:22] So let me ask you this now you know you’ve talked about retiring and you wrote this so you know the article what kind of feedback have you gotten from other Physicians have you gotten from your car.
When you were you know announcing you the are when you told him that you’re going to retire.

Valerie Jones, Md: 
[13:38] Truck I think honestly I was the first reaction you know I think that.

[13:45] I think there’s some people were really happy for me I think they were my friends and they know kind of where I was coming from and some of the actually the older Physicians were the ones who were shocked I got a whole lot of different reactions some people’s are like you’re crazy why are you doing this you’re not going to have enough money to live off of,
for however many class years until your 90 years old and you have 3 kids who’s going to pay for all of their.
But I think you know we did a lot of stuff’s besides what I initially talked about that kind of kept us in a good spot and so but I heard the whole gamut and I’ve heard some people even now. There are some people will say some pretty hateful things but.
I did I do not to just brush him off his fight over is entitled to their own opinion and I did listen to them but I don’t really know internalize it too much but it’s some people have brought up the question of is it all that schooling and you know it.
To just not work anymore after 7 years is that is that a circle you know and so I kind of view.
Maybe that matter bakeries with me but you know I view it as I paid for my education granted and you get a residency salary when you’re working in residency but.
We’re pretty much underpaid as you know anybody’s ever done residents he knows you’re getting minimum wage to do,
a lot could not function without Residence Inn so I think really the girls getting a pretty good deal with that so I don’t,
actually feel bad about that and so do I have to live my life the way someone else dictates that I do know I don’t think I do.

[15:18] And I put in all that time will that’s my time maybe.
How much was that wasted I have no regrets for doing medical school and residency in putting in all those years in at that time it’s really what I wanted to do at that time is what I want and how I want to serve.

[15:31] GNC and it just life happens sometimes and it changes and so I think the whole.

[15:36] Toy. I wanted to make about this is it’s great to be in a position where if your life does changing you want to take those different steps then at least the finances can be an order so that you can do that and not feel trapped,
in a situation where you don’t want to be your a job that’s not working for you or you know that malpractice concerns have gotten to be too stressful for whatever reason and so I think that was more of what I try to focus on and not worry too much about the negatives.
Comments that people making.
You know I don’t take it personally but I’m just trying to maybe like you said get this information out there to help maybe some other presidents who are just,
starting an in women too and I appreciate you having me on because there’s just not a lot of women Physicians that are out there talking about this they’re starting to be and I think women are and interests in finances we want to take control of our finances we can it’s just it hasn’t.
In the past been a focus I think we’re getting there now and so it’s another thing to that has,
comments about you just a state are you a housewife now they mean if anybody can do that right so I will know it’s not exactly that it would be if I said we’re totally living off my husband salary now and I decided to become a stay-at-home mom.
Usher Yeah but that’s not exactly how it went we’re at the point now where either one of us or both of us could retire my husband does still,
could use work right now I don’t know for how much longer but because he enjoys it and so if he enjoys it and why you should he have to stop that doesn’t take anything away from.
Kind of calling it retirement because we’re at a point where we both could or we didn’t need to work to support our children and in our future but there’s absolutely I think nothing wrong if he wants to continue to work fine if he can do it on his terms and leave us he ever wanted to.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[17:15] Right I think that’s exactly what you described.

[17:19] The goal for this podcast and and a lot of other resources that are starting to come available.

[17:25] Is for Physicians to reach independent it doesn’t mean you have to retire early or any other field for that matter but just securing that independent allows you choices that.

[17:35] Previously you know there were no it wasn’t a choice you had to work now you have the choice and which direction you choose to go with it is ultimately up to you and you don’t have to answer to anyone but yourself.
I read some of the comments that were on your website and I’m sure on the Kevin MD sidestepping but that even a ton more unfortunately people do tend to attack positions little bit I think.
Today I was just reading an article on doximity where I came over who wrote it but efficient talked about.

[18:04] All these other positions have been recently talking about physician burnout and stuff like that and basically said that you know instead of just talking about it fix it do something stop.
Came off that and I think that’s you know that that that’s really unhelpful doesn’t really it’s in contributes more to the toxic environment that that is out there.
Then helping anything just telling us to stop whining.

Valerie Jones, Md: 
[18:27] Yes I agree with you 100% that’s not destructive whatsoever.
And I think by talking about it we are contributing to you know hopefully making some change and that’s that’s why I’m talking about is not just to complain or whatever you know socially about the retirement piece,
that but you know it is hopefully it will be helping other people the one thing that I think helped us the most 100% from the financial aspect,
was living off of one salary that’s one thing I didn’t mention earlier and that was huge for us and I think most Physicians that I know it must have a spouse that works now I know that’s not the case for all positions but it actually I think is quite common now to be a dual physician,
family or to have.
Who is the wife in the husband or the spouse working and in these cases and so I think it’s not unreasonable then people consider that option I know a lot of people do it after talking with friends and other colleagues most people don’t live off of 1 salary and it is,
that’s the way we really did it if you want to know what I think is the real reason,
I so we look off my salary and saved even off of mine to in anything that my husband made immediately went to debt repayment investing in Saving none of it we didn’t even look at it as a salary never even looked at it and so that was really the biggest part I think.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[19:44] Yeah yeah that’s right I think that’s really it’s it’s true and particularly a lot of positions come out of.
Training and yeah we have all worked very hard and we almost feel like we’re entitled to.

[19:56] You know spend a little bit and I I can’t argue with that point but it doesn’t but you just have to realize that if you do that.

[20:02] That you even are you just going to be delaying Independence in and that’s a choice that positions ate themselves but.

[20:08] A lot of times it just kind of doing it out of your not really thinking and I feel like now getting that knowledge out there look at that you were doing and several other people out there are doing at least let them think about it because before I was just like well you.
You know now attending it’s time to finally live after all these years of sacrificing so.

[20:26] I think that’s really good advice living off of one income is is great and you know I mean tremendous three that you were able to have that inside at an early age so that’s.
That’s great nobody asked you when did you actually first think about it retiring and then when did you actually retire what was it take me through the time span that you tell me the time span the mechanics of how you calculated these numbers things like that.

Valerie Jones, Md: 
[20:48] Well that’s I think a big part of a good thing that you mentioned actually because the numbers we’d always been keeping track of and that’s something I think most people should do is just know what your.
Your spending is your savings are assets in her in to try but we have a huge spreadsheet,
they were constantly updating we’ll get together about every 6 months or so and really see okay where are we with how are doing financially and where’s our money going what’s coming in what accounts do we have in so that really helped keep us on track for just knowing where everything was going and so.

[21:17] I wasn’t really planning on retiring I was like I had said getting a little bit more dissolution of the last couple of years but had it plan on retiring until the healthcare happen and that was just a year ago.
So it pretty quickly after that I’d say about a month after it happened I am doing some thinking and.
And I just realized I’m just going to go ahead and do this but then of course I gave advance notice and and so I was a salaried employee position and so.
I gave my 90 days notice I actually offered I could stay on a little bit longer doing things here and there but I definitely wasn’t going to be full-time or even.
You’ll have time but basically it was pretty much done after about 3 or 4 months from when I gave my notice trying to give it to my colleagues little bit of time to kind of prepare.
But yeah it would happen pretty quickly I would say but by that time we already know in the numbers you know we had already been keeping track and so we knew that.
Thanks actually look pretty good and so I said well we can do this and so you went ahead and decided to do that one thing that I think is going to be the biggest,
problem though for somebody retiring early it especially at my age and if my husband does the next couple of years we’ve got a lot of years of paying for health insurance,
and so that’s a huge.
Part of it but we we added that into our spreadsheet you know how much is a you don’t know we really don’t know what health insurance is going to cost but you make your best bet you aim for probably will higher than it would cost and you put me up.
Softer than some calculations which I think of everything we thought of what I know we have to.

[22:40] Tell the kids with her insurance when their teenagers will it be a sports programs for the next however many years every last little detail was put into this huge spreadsheet to try to really figure out,
what are expenses will be in multiply that by how many years were going to need that that money and really figure it out that way.
And so just knowing the numbers really helps and to keep track of things really important I think.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[23:02] Okay I’m not going to ask you specific numbers but if you can give me an idea in terms of your annual expense. The dollar amount but let there’s a rule of thumb that says.
You should have 20 times your annual spending stuff like that is there a number that you guys got to in terms of a multiple of your annual spending and you already said you were you know you spend on one person’s income but just kind of how did you.

[23:23] Get to that number.

Valerie Jones, Md: 
[23:25] Brian probably.

[23:27] 30 times and I’m spending we do live pretty frugally I would say both of us are kind of have the same mindset as good vacations every year but.
Wit Rob expanders I guess either one of us we actually we don’t do private school for our children which is another big one I think.
Oh at rages and so we had to have that benefit as well as having Public School far we’re all 3 kids we live in an area where the public schools are,
some of the best in the country and so we’re taking advantage of that,
and so that’s a part of it as well and so it’s all about choices like you said some people say Macy’s worth it to them to pay for private school board maybe they want to have that big house right out of residency and so it’s just everybody has their own decision about what’s more important to them for us we were fine with public school we are both.
Products of public school we are happy with it you know an in so those are our decisions and that’s one of things where you had mentioned before people wants to get out of residency they feel like they just need to get out there and then spend that attending salary and I get it yeah I was there too.

[24:26] Tired you’ve been delaying this forever you want to spend some money and so you know it did a little bit but then we almost made a mistake of.
Becoming house poor as I would call it a.
Did you see that waiting to tell me I know you’re finally going to jump to a salary that’s like 5 times what it was a year ago and you wanted to get that big house because they’ll give it to you they’ll give you a loan for it and you can get the mortgage for it but we decided not to do that in and get what we need it was just a nice house but not like the.
You know that mcmansion that we probably could have we can do it we said you know we’re just we don’t need that and we didn’t feel the need to keep up with anyone else and you know prove anything and so I think that helps a little bit too.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[25:03] And some of it is you know that you’re you’re able to do it successfully I think a lot of Physicians tend to hang out with other Physicians and there seems to be a little bit of you know.
Eraser you know it’s hard to keep that.
You said an ellipse like you were you know you sound like you’re able to do it very well but I think hanging out with other Physicians tends to be detrimental to your financial.

Valerie Jones, Md: 
[25:26] Yes I think so.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[25:36] You know so you said you don’t want to go back to work is it as it OB.
Do you see a time where you going to be doing something in terms of doing this blog do you see yourself kind of going in that realm creating some sort of programs for other Physicians things like that.

Valerie Jones, Md: 
[25:52] Yeah it’s a great question I think I realized after being out for a little bit now is it’s probably like a lot of positions that are Taipei is.
Kind of hard not to do something you know and so sure I have three kids and I spend a lot of time with them and so that’s my biggest Focus right now however you’re right I’m started blogging which I never thought I would do I had no interest in that whatsoever but,
hey here it is and so that’s the beauty of being retired is that I have this opportunity now to explore,
other interests and so yes I’m going to explore that for now I’m going to do some riding I’m doing some little bit of work with doximity now and contributing articles for them and so.
All these opportunities I started to present themselves and and I’m able it’s being a position I would say okay I’ll try it and you know and see where it goes and so I think I will be doing something I don’t know.

[26:39] But not necessarily I will be doing it trying to get a salary out of I’ll be doing it if it’s something I’m passionate about her,
or something that you know that I had that I want to pursue in this so that is why I want to be a physician Advocate that is something that I’m passionate about and I’m kind of happy that,
I’m in this position now to be able to do that especially for my OBGYN colleagues I’m trying to get the word out it’s just it’s just not sustainable how it is and there’s going to be a huge physician shortage coming so people are retiring early from OBGYN for when there’s just going to be a mass shortage of Ob-Gyn says coming and so,
I still have enough Iron Maiden yet leaving recently that I want to keep advocating for my colleagues and so I’m going to keep doing that and so hopefully the blog will be a forum for that.
When writing other articles and so kind of steak entrenched with the medical community but maybe not prefer C clinically this point.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[27:31] Right yeah I just thought of this while we were talking but it annoys some of the other OBGYN that take out a popular thing for OBGYNs was to you no cut the OB part of the practice and DO gynecology only it was that something you thought about in terms of slowing down or where you pretty much like I’m just you know.

[27:48] This is it I’m done.

Valerie Jones, Md: 
[27:49] I was pretty much like this is it I’m done,
but know that is absolutely true that’s a very common for OBGYNs to cut the OB part because that’s the tough part.
Doing the deliveries up all night malpractices the concern,
type of medicine where they’re having OBGYNs in the hospital for 24 hour shift so the whole the whole field is changing so it’s going to be interesting to see how we’re going to able to handle that was a shortage of physicians in the next 5-10 years.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[28:27] One other question I had for you are you you were talking about the numbers and you and your husband were in a pretty intelligent about the way you guys.
Matters just throughout the course of your local school residency things I got did you use a financial advisor or you were you guys doing this on your own.

Valerie Jones, Md: 
[28:42] I would say.
How much on our own yeah my husband does have a little bit background in finance and so he was able to help guide some of this most of it and least with getting us on the right track but no we do not have a.
Financial advisor currently I just look at the fees and everything else now and like I’m learning so much about finances now that I’m actually retired and so I’ve actually learned quite a bit about the financial advisors and right now I don’t see the.

[29:08] I thought I would ever use a financial advisor for me personally but I think maybe for people who are in residency and just getting started maybe somebody to help them kind of guide them but still.
Looking out and make sure that they’re learning enough to really know what’s going on with their money and not just going to blindly but a financial advisor lead them it’s kind of how I do it now.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[29:27] Okay well good the last thing I was going to talk to you what it what is your advice to other Physicians who are who are feeling some of the effects of burnout.

Valerie Jones, Md: 
[29:37] Well I feel like you know I think it’s going to get better I really do.

[29:42] I think that it’s starting to become public now and you are paying attention and that this is a real problem positions are people you know they’re there real people who are working hard most decisions have.

[29:53] The best intentions at heart I think I think you hear the sensation I stories about these.
These doctors that are doing terrible things but they are so few and far between I mean I think most of us know every we are colleagues and people we work with it’s just not the case for almost 98% of all Physicians you ever out there to do good for patients,
we care about our patients but we’re human beings and so I think that’s the biggest part of it and so forth for people who are you know burning out and one I would say.

[30:21] And I don’t really like to turn burn out because it makes it sound like there’s a problem with the position and and their ability to react to how things are going I actually think it’s more of a problem with the system and so I think that you know that.

[30:35] They should realize that it’s not a problem with them it’s a problem with the system and their you know they should try to get help if they’re having a lot of difficulty and try to figure out if it’s not working for you try to figure out a way to change things maybe cut back on hours or.
Unified something that’s more that you get more satisfaction out of your career and to get your finances in order.
You need to make a change to do it so you can do it comfortably not have to worry or feel trap.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[31:00] Right absolutely.
But I think it’s great and I’m glad you were able to come on this this show and discuss your story and I hope that our listeners will get you know get some good information out of it I’m sure they will and I really like her description of burnout talking about it’s not.
You’re not the problem it’s the system I think that’s so true but as as Physicians most of us you know we feel that like you said that type A personality and you know it’s a go go go type of thing and you ultimately feel like.

[31:27] It’s your fault will your you’re absolutely right that this system is unsustainable in it and it will it will wear down on anyone if you’re allowed to so I really appreciate you you could have.
Describing it in that way I want to thank you for coming on the show and I want to encourage our listeners to check out your blog at OB doctor mom.com.
And I know you talked about topics related to Medicine motherhood the some of the financial aspects.
I encourage them to check that out and and thank you very much for coming on the show.

Valerie Jones, Md: 
[31:57] Got thank you so much for having me it was nice talking with you.

Tarang Patel — Intro Outro: 
[32:03] Thank you dr. Jones for appearing on the podcast it’s been a long while since we recorded this episode and I appreciate her patience with me.
For the long time gap before it was released.

[32:15] I hope she continues to encourage you guys to maintain a high savings rate to allow Financial Freedom sooner.

[32:23] Please consider joining our Facebook group doctor Money Matters where we discussed many of these Financial topics and please continue to subscribe to the podcast and to leave positive reviews for the show or any other podcasts to listen to.
The more 5 Star reviews you get the better the show ranks on the Apple podcast algorithm and the more it can be accessible to other people who would would find it useful so thank you for those of you who left the five star reviews.
And please if you haven’t left to review I encourage you to do so for this podcast and for other podcasts to listen to.

[32:59] And also remember to check out dr. Jones website OB doctor mom.com and listen for our next episode coming out soon.

Doctor Money Matters Ep 17: 
[33:21] For those of you still listening what do you think of the change of music.

[33:25] Hit me up on Twitter at Dr Money Matters or on Facebook and tell me if you think this is a better type of music or you want to hear some other type of intro and outro music thanks.

Transcription from Google Speech Recognition. Please excuse any errors as this has not been proofread.

Transcript

Main Intro

Episode 15 Intro Outro:

[0:44] Welcome to another episode of the doctor Money Matters podcast and this episode I talked with dr. Eric Levi and ENT surgeon who created.

[0:53] A viral article earlier this summer when he wrote The Dark Side of doctoring an article relating to physician burnout and lack of job satisfaction.

[1:03] Eric wrote this article based on his experience as a specialist who’s nearly completing the long process of specialty training in Australia but I think his experiences are comparable with listeners in the US and other Western Nations.

[1:18] He has a series of articles that I encourage you to read on his website question is not necessarily a financial topic.

[1:27] If physician burnout leads to increased job dissatisfaction and leaving the profession early.

[1:35] Obviously it’ll have major Financial consequences.

[1:39] Many physician colleagues are already talking about these issues more today than they were in previous generations and I think what Eric wrote about and what we speak about on this episode will sound familiar but he is hopeful that the system is now ready for chain.

[1:53] So without further Ado here’s my interview with Dr Eric Levi.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[1:57] To another episode of the doctor Money Matters podcast I guess today is Dr Eric Levi and ENT surgeon from Australia who recently wrote a great article called The Dark Side of doctoring about the stresses and pressures.

Face by many Physicians this article has been shared throughout the social media universe and resonates with many Physicians practicing in the developed world.

Eric welcome to the show.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[2:22] Thanks. Thanks very much.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[2:23] Tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and what made you go into medicine in the first place.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[2:28] That’s interesting story I mean I I I started thinking about,

Healthcare professions I went in psychology as my first degree and then added medicine is my second degree,

and then not became an ENT surgeon just because it’s one of those special things that I really loved and fell in love with and it suited me my training has been in Australia in Melbourne and particular.

Then I did a fellowship in Canada and now I’m back in Australia that’s where my story is briefly.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[2:59] You’ve been training quite a bit I see you’re you’re you’re you’re going to be doing another fellowship is that right.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[3:04] That’s right I’m doing this crazy thing I’m doing 3 fellowships in three different country so I’ve done a fellowship in Canada,

I’ve done my second fellowship and just finished my second Fellowship just now in in Brisbane Australia and I’m flying off in a couple of weeks to New Zealand,

just to do a third Fellowship they’re all in the area theater head and neck and ENT surgery.

You know one of those things that I’ve loved and I wanted to get more experience.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[3:34] That’s great when are you when are you going to do your fellowship number for in the US.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[3:38] I hope not I think I think my wife will kill me I’ve tried to taking the family for a tree your trip around the world I think I wait we have I have to grow up She said I need to grow up and get a real job.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[3:51] Exactly as as for many of my listeners it’s yeah you’re you’re you’re currently in this long road training but you’re you’re almost at the end of the tunnel one more year to go like you said.

[4:04] Let’s let’s let’s talk about your article that the Dark Side of medicine or the Dark Side of doctoring I believe his actual title what what made you write it and what.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[4:14] Yes one of the one of the things look so obviously some of your listeners may have,

may have read it all have seen pieces of it it was triggered by the suicide death of a colleague senior gastroenterologist and I think I was also,

place where I was experiencing a measure of burnout emotionally and professionally and I think that that death triggered,

my thoughts a lot of reflections of thinking because more than anything that that suicide death was of somebody who’s reasonably senior who’s got a great career both in the public and the private sector in Australia someone who Wisconsin’s like a great family but no significant history of any previous depression or suicide attempts,

it was just a regular adopt a regular physician,

and obviously the sudden and Unexpected death was a surprise to many who knew him personally,

rest of us who have known him by video by by reputation and it made me think you know is this going to be something that I will experience in the future this something that that I need to think about right now in my career,

what’s Driven him to that point and,

and all I did was one weekend I just sat down then I started thinking about the things that that push me into that area of Despair or Darkness or Auburn out whatever terms you want to call it.

And I came up with those personal three personal things and.

[5:46] I see if alluded to it it somehow gotten a lot of traction from.

Pretty much you know most of the developed countries and many developing countries as well and who failed,

exactly the same way you know most clinicians and not just stopped us Physicians of Surgeons but but you know I’ve had,

emails from Advanced dentists nurses physiotherapists physical therapist and pretty much anyone who works in healthcare.

Who experiences some or all of the things that are wrote On The Block.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[6:19] Yeah I mean it it has been a tremendous residence a lot of my colleagues have talked about it and you know we said social media has accelerated it throughout the.

Throughout the majority of the world in the developing world is as you said so you talked about three specific things that put you in the pit of despair I think those of your words.

Let’s let’s talk about them because I think those are the things that many physicians in the US particularly the majority of my where my listeners are are from.

Can identify with that so the first thing you mentioned is the loss of control talk about that.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[6:58] Yeah date I mean,

I pretty much did the training system in Australia might be just a little bit different to live it longer compared to the US although we started earlier we finish off high school and some of us go straight into medical school,

and I ride and being a postgraduate degree,

either way it’s a long process it’s a long journey and every single year you got to compete for a new training position are you going to compete for more publication to go to compete for jobs that are often hard to come by as so you know,

people outside of medicine think that we doctors have you don’t have control over all career but during our training years we actually have very little control.

Sass a consultancy professor say fully qualified physician as an attending we are all control over day-to-day things in over a careers actually very,

restricted unlimited by a lot of forces be honest meaning Administration training programs and and universities and colleges and the,

and the like that’s the big picture we don’t actually have as much control as we would like to have with your gut star career.

[8:11] Interesting as well in the day-to-day basis you and I know the moon will pick up the pager we’re almost a slave to that pager when we’re on call years surprises often happened no emergency calls occur that means that we have to keep changing what we do on a day-to-day basis.

[8:26] So I think experiencing that over so many years over about 13 years of being a being a doctor being a physician right now.

It’s made me realize that control is actually not something that really have on a day-to-day basis yes I’ve got an operating list.

I’m going to play Nicholas but what happens within that operating list or a clinic list is out of my control a lot of times that I don’t know what your system is like over there.

But we get allocated operating list without.

[8:54] Much of a discussion or clinic in the you know patients got put into a clinic you know we don’t even know sometimes how many we have on a tip on a particular day so small things I got to think over yourself amount to ask feeling that we are.

Almost caught on quote slaves to the medical industry.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[9:12] And I think that that has progressed over time I mean we think of physicians in the past you know they were mostly independent practitioners they.

At least it again I’m not sure how the Australian system was but I assumed it was similar they were not employed by the hospital they were.

Practitioners who operated at the hospital who in a rounded at the hospital but they could schedule their cases at like you’re saying now.

It’s becoming a situation where those things are dictated to you.

And ultimately you still are a physician you want to do what’s right for the patient but that that sense of control like you’re saying slow as it a Road Slowly does does get to you over time.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[9:52] Yeah indeed I’m Indian and take for example of very simple things such as what happens on the operating list when it used to be that I you know I knew every single patient that I was going to operate on then you know operation a.

In a particular patient might take 15 minutes but the same operation in a different patient with a different condition I’m a different complex comorbidities might take longer.

[10:15] No but all of our operations I’ve been average by your software system on the computer you know in the operating rooms such that you know bookings and operating this just got slaughtered and we don’t even have to control over same look you know.

This particular case will take a bit longer than the other cases that we’ve done so can we just make more room and.

You know the bookings department or the operating room a man will probably say no you have to do this x number of.

Received yours over this number of time or ours so things like that does change the way we practice medicine on a day-to-day basis.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[10:53] Absolutely I think some of that like you mentioned as as medicine has become more of a business or industrialized that that’s happening here tonight don’t know.

I’m sure there are certain hospitals and and places in the US where you know their aggregate that data I’m not sure that it’s.

Quite to the level that you’re describing but I’m sure.

It’s it if it’s not there yet it it’s Encino coming soon because that is the direction that we are headed it as well so that the second thing you mentioned is the loss of support what what do you mean by that.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[11:27] Yeah I mean on a day-to-day basis a physically we work on a typical day maybe 12 hour long I know starting all rounds at 6 or 7 a.m.

and finishing are all rounds in the afternoon at 6 or 7 p.m.

and then we get home and we still have to do a few more things in terms of studies and research and education and planning for lectures and things like that we have families and social support,

I’m in physically because of this Share work love that we have,

often time with our traditional social networks family friends Kali and colleagues,

cut down when I trained I trained in Melbourne and Victoria and every 3 to 6 months we have to move to a different hospital that takes away again,

social networks,

every time we move we got to set up in a new place in the environment that gets really challenging you know although there are many formal support systems available,

not in the hospital such as you know a phone line or a staff Health Clinic often accessing no support systems are actually.

Medically impossible for us because of the hours that we working,

or the mobility of our career moving to a different hospital or a state or different state every few years or every few months so that gets very challenging so I think,

you know what I was alluding to is the fact that it’s almost hard to maintain traditional support systems once you enter the world of Medicine with loss.

[13:01] Missed out on so many anniversaries and an n and reunions and social meetings and birthday parties because of our training and our work.

Traditional social support is essentially a pulled away from under our feet because of our careers.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[13:17] Right and what do you think as far as you know your colleagues and and particularly your seniors many of them.

In the especially surgeons at notorious for this in the US 20 30 years ago especially.

There was a famous surgery Residency program in the US that claimed they had 100% divorce rate and.

And if you didn’t make it you know if you happen to make it through they it was it was an aberration you know.

Unlikely but do you think that it’s gotten better over time at least with our colleagues or do you think our colleagues are part of the lack of support that we have.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[13:58] Yeah it’s a real it’s a real interesting way of looking at it I mean we do have very similar challenges with our social you know and this is all anecdotal because from,

one of your number is very hard to actually get a good field,

but I I remember you know going through the EMT program in our state and there was this usually about,

about 9 or so people going through each year and they always talk about this always going to be a couple of divorces that’s going to happen you know every year it’s a sad reality.

You know both from a from a from an informal point of view I think there has been a reduction in the informal support networks just,

going out for meals together drinking together and having son of social time together with with with khaliq’s I think that has decrease,

the form of support I think in a way has gotten a little bit better and in the sense that hospitals and colleges and professional colleges and academies and and state-based health institutions,

trying the best to provide some measure of formal support through again phone lines or you know.

Advice numbers to call or confidential meetings and support system like that or,

more former things like seminars on,

on on mental health of Physicians and and the light so there’s both a more formalized support.

[15:28] But at the same time I wonder how many are actually accessing those formal support systems or support services that are available one resident.

Mentioned to me you know,

we can go to all you know we can go to all the the free yoga classes that’s given to us it’s still not going to change the fact that I’m,

exhausted after doing Kohl’s for so many hours or doing research paper work,

and and everything else and there’s some truth in that there’s a challenge between providing good.

Formal support versus also creating an informal culture of support within our Medical Group.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[16:08] And I think that is a very key point because I think for many US medical students and I’m sure at the way you describing it it sounds similar and maybe even tougher and Australia that you’re so competitive,

during your medical school time to get good academic grades and like I said do research that you’re it’s very competitive with each other it’s.

It is sometimes hard for that same.

Group of people then to turn around and become it’ll colleagues with each other particularly in the fields that are even you no more competitive to get into so,

it’s almost think a badge of honor to you know I work this hard and I work in a this many hours you might be ostracized for seeking help but.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[16:52] Yeah.

[16:53] You’re absolutely right thing I think you’ve actually nailed a very good point there the badge of honor mentality in Madison is so strong and so pervasive you know every,

you walk into medical school and there’s always a price to go for you know the so-and-so prize of clinical Excellence of the sewing surprise out,

taking a specialty of otolaryngology or something and that nothing has permeated through the fact that,

you know all through our medical school and residency programs there is that that that pervasive badge of honor perfectionistic,

culture that that is.

You know on the current in our community which I wouldn’t say that that’s it it’s great because obviously it was it the next time we have to do it for the patients we have.

To be the best surgeons and Physicians and doctors who can be for patients by the same time as all that’s also a two-edged sword in that it hurts us because we’re not.

Honest enough with our self to seek support from a fellow colleagues rather than competitors.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[17:56] Right absolutely that’s that’s very true now the third thing that you mentioned was loss of meaning so what do you talk about that.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[18:06] Again with the first two of the loss of control in the loss of support those are systemic,

issues Salt Lake bigger things that probably may have multiple different possible solutions now and that’s,

those are those two losses somehow I could handle a little bit better than this third laws that are felt which is a loss of meaning and it’s hard for me to let you put it into words what is meaning of morale,

you know a sense of vocational achievement.

What I really meant was you know we all signed up to to do medicine to be a physician with an altruistic motive yes there is a desire to do well financially and the desire to do well from career point of view.

[18:51] Beneath all that it’s all desire to actually do well for a patient’s it’s a it’s a service provision for the sake of our patients,

with the industrialization commercialization or the modernization of medicine and surgery I feel that we have become just a commodity in a complex medical industry and with loss,

that sacred calling or vocation or more Isle of meaning that Drew us to Medicine in the first place and I think that’s probably one of those things where.

I was from a position of burnout when I was writing that and I realized.

You know what really Burns me up is all the additional staff that goes beyond just being a doctor to my patient was all the paperwork all the competition you know all the all the long hours in the exhaustion that I feel being dictated by.

Other factors Administration and are there any other factors and there was a real challenge for me and that maybe something that you in the US feel you know many other Physicians and other countries also feel,

is that they no longer a physician but they are a commodity they are just one of those things in the complex Factory line.

Medicine but with just one of the many encounters that are patient meet.

[20:08] And that’s a real Challenge and I think that just erodes a little bit of the meaning of medicine for me and that was something that I struggle with.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[20:15] I think it’s it’s it’s very insightful of you to you know put these ideas to paper and I think that you really have captured it in a very eloquent way what what many of us do feel and can you know you’re absolutely right here,

in the u.s. my colleagues you know most of us who have finished training in the last.

Five to ten years have have transition from what used to be predominantly private or independent practices or you know or true Academic Center.

Two employed Physicians weather there for an academic center or a true just a private Hospital.

[20:52] The independent the loss of Independence has come at a price and and some of my previous guests have have noted that that that.

That is something that that really you can’t put price tag or a financial amount on but it really does have a a sense of loss and I.

What you describe is that you lose a sense of purpose on those you you went to become a physician like you said for the altruistic thing yes you know money is good achievement is good but ultimately we want to help the patient and.

[21:25] What is happened is we have been reduced now to like you said Commodities procedure codes you know tonsillectomy for you or you know reading 10 CT scans for me in a given amount of time.

And that that that really has that I think taking its toll on on people and and more and more Physicians now.

[21:48] Or are looking to other to get out either get out of medicine or to slow down and you know what which is good and bad but it is a shame because none of us went into medicine.

[22:02] To do that we went in to help people and an external factors like you say rrr probably causing.

[22:10] Let’s let’s let’s follow up a little bit about that you talked about the industrialization of Medicine,

and some of what I read from your article and and some of the.

Share the common issues that many of his face isn’t a word that you have said and I know I’ve said it a number of times as many positions on Twitter.

Have posted this graph and I think you actually have to the growth of Administrators over time to talk about that what are you what do you think that that has contributed to an you are very careful and I think you put in a very good ways that we’re not.

[22:44] Anti administrator we both need each other but.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[22:46] Yes yes.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[22:48] But what is happened and what do you think that growth of Administrators says done.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[22:54] Yeah so I think it’s a real it’s a real challenge to think about this because we certainly need administrators leaders you know clinical leaders clinical administrators,

to help us do a better job as as doctors as Physicians we know that we live in a world of industrialization where we would like,

every doctor every physician to be playing the best and we do need that but I think the feeling that I have is that over many years which that are of employing Administrators,

and business-minded people to.

Help make the system work for us but over time it has almost taken over the whole system and I wonder whether the application of business principles from the commercial wilt.

Is truly applicable,

to the medical world what I mean by that is what I feel when I’m working for a particular institution in Australia is that I am just,

one of those guys employees down at the bottom and the health administrators are in the middle and a top.

[24:02] And that seems to be a kind of a organizational hierarchy that that is present in a lot of hospitals I kind of think of it the other way around that.

Wii.

[24:14] I work for my patient I don’t work for the health administrators the hell that Minister just work for the patient they don’t work for the Physicians it’s almost we work together.

For the sake of our patients and it’s almost just a change of that hierarchical mindset that that that I hope can happen sure there are great health administrators around who are doing exactly just that they become to support.

Crew to ensure that their Physicians and clinicians nurses doctors.

On the front line I’m playing the bass game but I also see a love institutions where it is a top-down hierarchy where the CEOs at the top.

And the internal medical sit on his right down at the bottom I think I’m mines a man that change or a paradigm shift needs to happen.

To say that the health administrators are support crew working together behind the scene beside the clinician.

[25:15] To make sure that Service delivery or provision of Care by the clinicians are at their highest.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[25:23] Absolutely I think you know one of the issues that that we discuss here often is a receipt so many administrators and.

And like you said you know in in.

Their ideas initially were probably good but they certain administrators them B get more administrators and then it just seems to to grow and and you so you have a series of people now telling you.

You know okay you need this you need to do this you need to you need to have these discharge summaries done.

And you already you already know this but now you’re getting constant you know multiple sides telling you the same thing.

And none of that contributes anything to patient care and that’s the first day of tsion that many of us feel.

[26:07] One of the other things this being a a financial podcast is that.

[26:12] You know physician incomes in the u.s. of generally been higher than the majority of the rest of the world bit Australia and Canada also are relatively High compared to other Western countries.

[26:26] But those salaries have basically been when you account for inflation.

[26:32] Flat to maybe minimally increased over time and they don’t miss silly correspond with the the growth of training times and the cost of medical school particularly not sure how it is not sure the cost of medical school in the US.

I just exploded to you know some of those people are having.

[26:51] 3 – $400,000 in dead by the time they get out but but anyway by my point is is that.

[26:58] You you see that the health care costs continue to rise astronomically in the US and then you see administrators and Hospital Executives like you were talking about of the top of the pyramid making routinely millions of dollars.

And and so the frustration for many Physicians are you know we’re we’re in we’re the ones providing the care hour.

[27:21] Other colleagues on the team the nurses the therapists are all providing the care and.

[27:28] Yet they’re not the ones yes they’re making a good living but you know.

It’s just frustrating to see the the support people like you like we described profiting from the system 2.

When patients here specifically can’t even afford care so yeah that that I think that also contributes to that loss of meeting that that you talk.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[27:50] Very similar to the Australian system as well our medical cost for Metro medical training medical school and residency training registrar training specialist training are extremely expensive,

an hour procedure codes are our salaries and have not increased by Machoke does not match.

Inflation rates we have spoken about this end in Australia we have mention this at all but it’s very hard.

For a group of doctors to a Lobby for an increase in salary because.

The society already thinks of us as already you know.

Achieving a higher income rate so for us to actually say that we would like our income to match inflation rate it’s.

Open a very challenging a struggle but yes it is there it is definitely happening in Australia as well.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[28:46] Do you think that this is just another dabal though this progression of industrialization do you think there’s anything Physicians can do to change it or do we just you know learn to live with it and and make changes personally that that will.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[29:01] I certainly hope that there we have reached at that the pendulum swing you know we have reached that point where we realize okay this is not working let’s do something about this,

if we continue down this path we’re going to lose more doctors to Suicide we’re going to lose more doctors to other careers we’re going to have a ballooning of cost and with no real,

good outcome on improve heart considered a couple of things one is personal and the other the other is is institutional so,

personal level I read an interesting study by a dr. Tait shanafelt,

Publix couple of years ago when I went where where he studied couple of thousand Physicians I think from from the Mayo group and look,

productivity in relation of satisfaction in relation to the amount of meaningful work and they found that if you did.

Meaningful work for 20% of the time and 80% mundane work.

[30:03] You had high job satisfaction rate and that’s a ceiling meaning if you did 50%.

Meaningful work and 50% of mundane work you still.

You don’t get the same amount of satisfaction so it’s almost as if the right balance is about 22 at 20% true meaningful work 80% sure paperwork Monday and administrative work.

And you could get a pretty good job satisfaction and a good.

Innocence in a job efficiency and I saw that as a personal thing and I said okay great what are the 20% work that I can do.

So I could do a great job for my patience and that 20% could be teaching could be research could be a particular study on a particular subject anything it could be leadership so if I give myself 20% of my day to doing some of those,

things I might have a much better productivity And if every one of us had that opportunity to do that,

I think it would improve all our productivity as that as Physicians,

and you know productively s institution SSN institution and you know for the bigger picture for the institution I mean that’s something that I really need to think about a burnout Doctor Who’s exhausted depressed and I’m not enjoying the work.

It’s always here physician that’s potentially going to make more errors.

You know lower productivity outputs and so is it real business sense for institutions to start thinking about improving the morale and Physicians so that they can be.

[31:34] Playing the best game so they can actually be great doctors and that would Elevate the productivity from a business sense point of view if.

That’s what they want.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[31:44] That’s very interesting because I think that you know I am not familiar with the article that you mentioned but but that seems to be what.

[31:53] Our non medical colleagues if it’s particular the companies in Silicon Valley are doing in the US such as Google Facebook I think they’re giving their employees I read somewhere where it’s up to.

20% like you described you know time to dedicate to a project.

That may not be financially beneficial for the company but may give them you know like I said a little bit more meeting and then altimate Lee that leads to more satisfaction with their hole.

Whole job and hopefully a more productive more valuable employee so that.

[32:24] That would be amazing if we could apply that to the medical world doesn’t seem to be going in that direction but I really hope with.

[32:32] People like you and and the residents that your articles have have had throughout the medical world.

That we start having these conversations a little bit more.

Let me let me ask you as you know I know you you started this campaign crazy socks for docs or something like that tell me about that what what what are you what are you what are you doing with that.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[32:54] Yep so that’s an interesting thing I didn’t quite start the campaign it was a cardiologist from Melbourne by the name of dr. Jeff too good and he came up with that idea because he was struggling with some Mental Health,

and he had some difficulties with his particular institution and essentially came up with the idea of wearing some crazy socks to highlight,

add the prevalence of mental health issues inclinations I happen to just be a megaphone microphone I try to leverage that message to bring it across to my you know social media networks in and globalnet,

what it is is the backstory was he came into work wearing two different socks and somebody said are you okay what’s wrong with you,

and that’s Rick of the conversation of mental health in the workplace and I think the message was is very simple doctors are humans.

Doctors do suffer from mental health instead of having the stigma attached to a doctor with mental health.

We should really be supporting each other and acknowledging that we need to provide better mental health support for our clinicians,

and also at the same time we need to stop thinking about mentally healthy workplace as now it’s all tied in together again with job satisfaction and your productivity if we have mentally healthy workplace us will reduce the stigma of mental health in our profession,

will it reduce the Troublesome burnout in a profession we will reduce that kind of sense of loss of meaning in loss of purpose in our in our work.

[34:30] And you know the reverse of that is if search if we we do provide at that mentally healthy workplace as we will increase pertivity I mean we can apply the stuff that you’ve merely mentioned earlier,

what’s happening with Google land and other Silicon Valley can eyes Asians to say if those employees can be maximized.

Why can’t we exclamations be maximus in our work as well at the end of the day.

There’s a patient at the end of a stereoscope at is a patient at the end of our scalpels we have to be functioning at our best and we as an institution as a community need to provide.

[35:05] Mentally healthy workplace us NS you’ve mentioned I think one of the key things about this has been that we are now talking about it’s probably a few years too late,

but at least we’re talking about it now,

and the Solutions in a country Family Practice will be very different to the Solutions in a tertiary level cardiac transplant unit to cancel all these issues that we spoken about and I think the conversation,

has been good hopefully in the next few years we will see a cultural change we need a buying,

from the institution of Leaders with regards to this topic as well but at least I do get the feeling that.

There is a Grassroots movement of the pendulum is swinging back to a more Humane world of medicine for the petitioners Within.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[35:54] I think that’s a very very well put that’s what we know we’re all looking for wheat we all,

ultimately as you said human even though sometimes were asked to do superhuman Heats and terms of the you know the difference that we put into our training so.

I think that’s that’s great let me get let me ask you one last question what what advice would you give to.

Prospective medical students or medical students were just starting out in their career as they listen to.

They’re more senior positions you know who will probably have a more jaded or more negative outlook what what would you tell them to.

To kind of give them hope.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[36:34] I think what a lot of new medical students are all prospective medical students fail is their word that they are entering into.

The world of cynicism in medicine,

where there is a turf war between clinicians and administrators I would like to say that’s not happening that that that is not the that is not the case,

at the end of the day we went into medicine with the altruistic aim of doing well for our,

patients individually and society as a whole and I think we can still say that right now if I had my time all over again I would still choose to be a physician to be a clinician to be an ENT surgeon,

still the best joke in the world,

to me the road is tough but it is also one of the most rewarding careers of available and I and I also say that let’s not worry about the really really big picture.

What happens in a day-to-day basis is great you know you can always make a small difference and a small difference in our world doesn’t have to be expensive or extensive or anything like that,

can be just small little axle with time that changes our clinic and any changes our operating rooms in and it changes our,

unit in any changes our institution so the bottom line is.

It’s a hit we are signing up for a tough profession with some challenges but it is still a very worthwhile profession with a lot of,

very personal benefits from being a from being a physician.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[38:05] Very well put let’s I want to thank you very much Eric for participating in our podcast and listeners to our podcast and follow Eric,

on Twitter at Dr Eric Levi that are d r e r i c l e v i,

or his blog at Eric Levi. And I’ll have links to your articles and to your Twitter on our show notes.

So let me ask you this what what do you have other than your impending move to New Zealand where.

Probably you’ll be a little bit more relaxed because it just seems like that’s a very relaxing.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[38:38] That’s right.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[38:40] What what do you have planned in the future for as you know after after training and end with your social media.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[38:48] Thanks it is my pleasure to be here thank you so much for contacting me it’s been an enjoyable conversation to me personally in discussion look I’m just going to enjoy New Zealand.

In the future that will ultimately return to Melbourne and obviously I’ll join the practice set up a practice and Joint Institution back there you’re pretty alluded to something,

which is the essence of the work that we do I get the most joy out of just seeing patients on a day-to-day basis in clinical,

or are on your pretty room and I and I enjoy that that’s that’s the best part of my job.

Social media has been a very fascinating experience for me I have went in just wanting to learn from people and I Have Become.

Engage with and to a lot of people to throw a discussion and social media as we accelerate.

My learning esse as a surgeon and Ivan Jordan I’ll continue to do that as to whether or not that’s going to be anything big.

Probably not I’ll be happy to just be at home you know fooling the Twitter timelines and following you and enjoying what you say as well.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[39:59] Well thank you very much.

Episode 15 Intro Outro:

[40:02] Thanks for listening to another episode of the doctor Money Matters podcast I want to thank Dr Eric Levi for being my guest today and discussing the important and timely topic of physician burnout.

[40:15] There have been a number of physician suicides is Eric mentioned in the interview that led him to.

[40:22] Write these articles and I want to encourage those of you who are listening to speak with your colleagues and maintain the social relationships that help us deal with the enormous dresses that we face in our professions.

[40:33] I think Eric makes a point for me to point in our discussion about.

[40:38] The demise of the informal support groups that used to be more common such as happy hours or going out for coffee with residents and I think that those types of things.

[40:50] Are are as valuable if not more so now as our.

[40:57] Gets even more micromanaged from external factors I think commiserating with colleagues is probably an underrated way of dealing with these stressors.

[41:09] I know that many Physicians and administrators don’t have the best relationships but remember at the end of the day we both work for the patient so if we remember that it’ll it’ll be better for all of us.

[41:23] How you can read Eric’s articles at Eric Levi and you can follow him on Twitter.

[41:30] Dr Eric Levi I linked to both of those on the show note.

[41:34] And I want to thank you again for listening to those podcast more episodes are coming soon and whether you follow me or not on social media.

[41:45] I hope you do on Twitter @drmoneymatters I encourage more Physicians.

[41:51] To to use social media to interact with a wider array of colleagues around the world that’s how dr. Levi’s.

[42:01] Article became such a big deal and I do think that in this day and age learning to use social media to is vital to.

[42:08] Expand our networking with other Physicianis is valuable and in the long run will be beneficial for our profession.

Main Intro

 

This is a current list of our podcast episodes.

Episode 1. Jaime Fleischner — Disability Insurance

Episode 2. Joel Greenwald, MD, CFP — Basics of Financial Planning

Episode 3. Ike Devji, JD — Asset Protection

Episode 4. Anjali Jariwala, CPA — Taxes

Episode 5. Cory Fawcett, MD — Eliminating Debt

Episode 6. Josh Umbehr, MD — Direct Primary Care

Episode 7. Travis Hornsby — Student Loans

Episode 8. Jon Appino — Employment Contracts

Episode 9. Joseph Kim, MD — What you need to know before getting an MBA

Episode 10. Kenyon Meadows, MD — Investing in Real Estate

Episode 11. Keith Smith, MD — Fixed Price Surgery

Episode 12. Tarang Patel, DO — Roboadvisors

Episode 13. Charles Cochran, MD — Lifeofamedstudent.com

Episode 14. Bob Collins — Physician Recruitment

Episode 15. Eric Levi, MD — The Dark side of Doctoring

Episode 16. Dr. Tom and Kim Rairdon — High Income Parents

Episode 17. Valerie Jones, MD — Retiring from medicine at 37

Episode 18. Drs. Bepko — Military medicine to world travelers

Episode 19. Bonnie Koo, MD — Helping Independent Women find Financial Clarity.

Episode 20. Kevin Pho, MD — Social Media for Healthcare Professionals

Episode 21. Peter Kim, MD — What you should know before buying your home.

Episode 22. Ali Chaudhary, MD — Striking out on your own.

Episode 23. Eric Tait, MD — Altering your financial mindset due to changes in medicine.

Episode 24. Physician on Fire, MD — Achieving financial independence.

Episode 25. Victor Mangona, MD and David Anderson, DO — Common financial topics addressed (part 1)

Episode 26. David Anderson, DO and Victor Mangona, MD — Common financial topics addressed (part 2)

Episode 27. Drs. Nisha Mehta and Parag Butala — Achieving Balance in a Dual Physician Household

Episode 28. Esaias Tong — Managing cryptocurrencies and medical school

Episode 29. William Bernstein, MD — Lessons from a financial guru.

Episode 30. Ike Devji, JD — Basics of Estate Planning

Episode 31. Ike Devji, JD — Assorted legal questions.

Episode 32. Jason Mizell, MD — Teaching medical students about the Business of Medicine.

Episode 33. Amy Shah, MD — Creating a successful side gig.

Episode 34. Quynh Lan Nguyen, MD — Credit card hacking

Episode 35. Westby Fisher, MD — WTF is up with the MOC? (Part 1)

Episode 36. Westby Fisher, MD — WTF is up with the MOC? (Part 2)

Episode 37. Doc G, MD — How this physician was able to 5X his income in a primary care field (part 1).

Episode 38. Doc G, MD — How this physician was able to 5X his income in a primary care field (part 2).

Episode 39. Robert Felberg, MD — Negotation skills for physicians.

Episode 40. Leslie Kane, MA — The 2018 Medscape Physician Salary and Net Worth Reports.

 

I am compiling a list of business education resources for healthcare professionals.

I took a few of the Coursera business courses offered by Wharton. These are good to introduce you to the jargon of business and some of the basic finance mathematics. You can pay a small fee to get a certificate at the end of each course. Not sure if it’s really necessary but you may be able to put Wharton certificate on your CV. These courses are called MOOC (Massive Online Open Course) and they are massive. The few I took in 2015 had over 20,000 people enrolled. Probably a third finished. Mostly people start and then don’t complete assignments. Its not too difficult but can take some time particularly if you have not participated in educational activities recently and if your math skills are a bit rusty. The finance course is also easier if you are familiar with using spreadsheet functions. I was not so skilled and that took me time to get used to.

Obviously Coursera has tons of other class offerings for almost any interest from Universities around the world.

Another big group of classes comes from EdX a different but similar website. Partners include Harvard, MIT, Stanford, etc.

This is a link to the EdX Business and Management courses.

There are also courses available online from many specialty organizations such as American College of Healthcare Executives and the American Association of Physician Leaders. In my field of radiology, the American College of Radiology has partnered up with universities to produce a radiology specific leadership program. I have no reviews of these programs, though they are obviously more expensive than the MOOC but more tailored to healthcare. 

Indiana University has a relatively new physician specific executive MBA program that is cheaper than most other programs, but still requires travel and a significant cash outlay along with the opportunity cost of not practicing during your travel and study time.

I am not sure that the majority of healthcare leaders have high level business degrees. Mark Andreesen in a recent podcast interview said its easier to teach tech entrepreneurs business skills rather than teaching executives the technical knowledge to understand the tech industry. I think the same is true of healthcare. The reality is that getting into business school is easy. Getting into a high level MBA program while very competitive, is not as difficult as getting into a mid level medical school nor should it be. It is however much more difficult to succeed in the business world because the competition persists throughout your career. That mindset is now becoming mainstream in medicine as more and more business entities take over and reduce healthcare practioners to just providers. The way to fight this is to understand their business jargon and not be intimidated by it.

Hello and welcome to Doctor Money Matters website. This is the first blog entry. I am creating this site for my podcast to develop a community of physicians, dentists, and other health professions doctors who are interested in financial independence.

The costs of attending medical and dental school continue to rise and leave new graduates with ever increasing amounts of debt. Meanwhile the financial benefits (though still great) are decreasing and continue to be the targets of health care reformers. These are just two factors of many that make it important to learn to invest wisely and inexpensively and to save money where you can. The cost of paying others to do so is just too great for very little (if any) increased performance.

A little bit about me:

I am a hospital employed radiologist (The opinions on this website and podcast and associated social media sites do not necessarily reflect those of my employer). Prior to this position, I served as a physician in the US Air Force. Ever since college, I have been interested in finance, though I really just dabbled in the stock market. In the last 5 years, I have really spent a lot of time trying to understand personal finance and am continually amazed by how few of my colleagues do.

While this site will be geared towards personal finance initially, I would also like to explore professional financial topics such as contract negotiation, salary and employment trends, what to expect if starting a practice. I will try to make blog posts, and podcast interviews relating to these different topics.

I would also like to explore investment options such as roboadvisors, peer to peer lending, crowd funded real estate, etc. I will share my experiences with these types of investments.

Thanks for reading and always feel free to contribute and follow on twitter: @drmoneymatters or join the facebook group: doctor money matters.