Doctor Money Matters

Transcription from Google Speech Recognition. Please excuse any errors as this has not been proofread.

Transcript

Main Intro

Episode 15 Intro Outro:

[0:44] Welcome to another episode of the doctor Money Matters podcast and this episode I talked with dr. Eric Levi and ENT surgeon who created.

[0:53] A viral article earlier this summer when he wrote The Dark Side of doctoring an article relating to physician burnout and lack of job satisfaction.

[1:03] Eric wrote this article based on his experience as a specialist who’s nearly completing the long process of specialty training in Australia but I think his experiences are comparable with listeners in the US and other Western Nations.

[1:18] He has a series of articles that I encourage you to read on his website question is not necessarily a financial topic.

[1:27] If physician burnout leads to increased job dissatisfaction and leaving the profession early.

[1:35] Obviously it’ll have major Financial consequences.

[1:39] Many physician colleagues are already talking about these issues more today than they were in previous generations and I think what Eric wrote about and what we speak about on this episode will sound familiar but he is hopeful that the system is now ready for chain.

[1:53] So without further Ado here’s my interview with Dr Eric Levi.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[1:57] To another episode of the doctor Money Matters podcast I guess today is Dr Eric Levi and ENT surgeon from Australia who recently wrote a great article called The Dark Side of doctoring about the stresses and pressures.

Face by many Physicians this article has been shared throughout the social media universe and resonates with many Physicians practicing in the developed world.

Eric welcome to the show.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[2:22] Thanks. Thanks very much.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[2:23] Tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and what made you go into medicine in the first place.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[2:28] That’s interesting story I mean I I I started thinking about,

Healthcare professions I went in psychology as my first degree and then added medicine is my second degree,

and then not became an ENT surgeon just because it’s one of those special things that I really loved and fell in love with and it suited me my training has been in Australia in Melbourne and particular.

Then I did a fellowship in Canada and now I’m back in Australia that’s where my story is briefly.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[2:59] You’ve been training quite a bit I see you’re you’re you’re you’re going to be doing another fellowship is that right.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[3:04] That’s right I’m doing this crazy thing I’m doing 3 fellowships in three different country so I’ve done a fellowship in Canada,

I’ve done my second fellowship and just finished my second Fellowship just now in in Brisbane Australia and I’m flying off in a couple of weeks to New Zealand,

just to do a third Fellowship they’re all in the area theater head and neck and ENT surgery.

You know one of those things that I’ve loved and I wanted to get more experience.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[3:34] That’s great when are you when are you going to do your fellowship number for in the US.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[3:38] I hope not I think I think my wife will kill me I’ve tried to taking the family for a tree your trip around the world I think I wait we have I have to grow up She said I need to grow up and get a real job.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[3:51] Exactly as as for many of my listeners it’s yeah you’re you’re you’re currently in this long road training but you’re you’re almost at the end of the tunnel one more year to go like you said.

[4:04] Let’s let’s let’s talk about your article that the Dark Side of medicine or the Dark Side of doctoring I believe his actual title what what made you write it and what.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[4:14] Yes one of the one of the things look so obviously some of your listeners may have,

may have read it all have seen pieces of it it was triggered by the suicide death of a colleague senior gastroenterologist and I think I was also,

place where I was experiencing a measure of burnout emotionally and professionally and I think that that death triggered,

my thoughts a lot of reflections of thinking because more than anything that that suicide death was of somebody who’s reasonably senior who’s got a great career both in the public and the private sector in Australia someone who Wisconsin’s like a great family but no significant history of any previous depression or suicide attempts,

it was just a regular adopt a regular physician,

and obviously the sudden and Unexpected death was a surprise to many who knew him personally,

rest of us who have known him by video by by reputation and it made me think you know is this going to be something that I will experience in the future this something that that I need to think about right now in my career,

what’s Driven him to that point and,

and all I did was one weekend I just sat down then I started thinking about the things that that push me into that area of Despair or Darkness or Auburn out whatever terms you want to call it.

And I came up with those personal three personal things and.

[5:46] I see if alluded to it it somehow gotten a lot of traction from.

Pretty much you know most of the developed countries and many developing countries as well and who failed,

exactly the same way you know most clinicians and not just stopped us Physicians of Surgeons but but you know I’ve had,

emails from Advanced dentists nurses physiotherapists physical therapist and pretty much anyone who works in healthcare.

Who experiences some or all of the things that are wrote On The Block.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[6:19] Yeah I mean it it has been a tremendous residence a lot of my colleagues have talked about it and you know we said social media has accelerated it throughout the.

Throughout the majority of the world in the developing world is as you said so you talked about three specific things that put you in the pit of despair I think those of your words.

Let’s let’s talk about them because I think those are the things that many physicians in the US particularly the majority of my where my listeners are are from.

Can identify with that so the first thing you mentioned is the loss of control talk about that.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[6:58] Yeah date I mean,

I pretty much did the training system in Australia might be just a little bit different to live it longer compared to the US although we started earlier we finish off high school and some of us go straight into medical school,

and I ride and being a postgraduate degree,

either way it’s a long process it’s a long journey and every single year you got to compete for a new training position are you going to compete for more publication to go to compete for jobs that are often hard to come by as so you know,

people outside of medicine think that we doctors have you don’t have control over all career but during our training years we actually have very little control.

Sass a consultancy professor say fully qualified physician as an attending we are all control over day-to-day things in over a careers actually very,

restricted unlimited by a lot of forces be honest meaning Administration training programs and and universities and colleges and the,

and the like that’s the big picture we don’t actually have as much control as we would like to have with your gut star career.

[8:11] Interesting as well in the day-to-day basis you and I know the moon will pick up the pager we’re almost a slave to that pager when we’re on call years surprises often happened no emergency calls occur that means that we have to keep changing what we do on a day-to-day basis.

[8:26] So I think experiencing that over so many years over about 13 years of being a being a doctor being a physician right now.

It’s made me realize that control is actually not something that really have on a day-to-day basis yes I’ve got an operating list.

I’m going to play Nicholas but what happens within that operating list or a clinic list is out of my control a lot of times that I don’t know what your system is like over there.

But we get allocated operating list without.

[8:54] Much of a discussion or clinic in the you know patients got put into a clinic you know we don’t even know sometimes how many we have on a tip on a particular day so small things I got to think over yourself amount to ask feeling that we are.

Almost caught on quote slaves to the medical industry.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[9:12] And I think that that has progressed over time I mean we think of physicians in the past you know they were mostly independent practitioners they.

At least it again I’m not sure how the Australian system was but I assumed it was similar they were not employed by the hospital they were.

Practitioners who operated at the hospital who in a rounded at the hospital but they could schedule their cases at like you’re saying now.

It’s becoming a situation where those things are dictated to you.

And ultimately you still are a physician you want to do what’s right for the patient but that that sense of control like you’re saying slow as it a Road Slowly does does get to you over time.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[9:52] Yeah indeed I’m Indian and take for example of very simple things such as what happens on the operating list when it used to be that I you know I knew every single patient that I was going to operate on then you know operation a.

In a particular patient might take 15 minutes but the same operation in a different patient with a different condition I’m a different complex comorbidities might take longer.

[10:15] No but all of our operations I’ve been average by your software system on the computer you know in the operating rooms such that you know bookings and operating this just got slaughtered and we don’t even have to control over same look you know.

This particular case will take a bit longer than the other cases that we’ve done so can we just make more room and.

You know the bookings department or the operating room a man will probably say no you have to do this x number of.

Received yours over this number of time or ours so things like that does change the way we practice medicine on a day-to-day basis.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[10:53] Absolutely I think some of that like you mentioned as as medicine has become more of a business or industrialized that that’s happening here tonight don’t know.

I’m sure there are certain hospitals and and places in the US where you know their aggregate that data I’m not sure that it’s.

Quite to the level that you’re describing but I’m sure.

It’s it if it’s not there yet it it’s Encino coming soon because that is the direction that we are headed it as well so that the second thing you mentioned is the loss of support what what do you mean by that.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[11:27] Yeah I mean on a day-to-day basis a physically we work on a typical day maybe 12 hour long I know starting all rounds at 6 or 7 a.m.

and finishing are all rounds in the afternoon at 6 or 7 p.m.

and then we get home and we still have to do a few more things in terms of studies and research and education and planning for lectures and things like that we have families and social support,

I’m in physically because of this Share work love that we have,

often time with our traditional social networks family friends Kali and colleagues,

cut down when I trained I trained in Melbourne and Victoria and every 3 to 6 months we have to move to a different hospital that takes away again,

social networks,

every time we move we got to set up in a new place in the environment that gets really challenging you know although there are many formal support systems available,

not in the hospital such as you know a phone line or a staff Health Clinic often accessing no support systems are actually.

Medically impossible for us because of the hours that we working,

or the mobility of our career moving to a different hospital or a state or different state every few years or every few months so that gets very challenging so I think,

you know what I was alluding to is the fact that it’s almost hard to maintain traditional support systems once you enter the world of Medicine with loss.

[13:01] Missed out on so many anniversaries and an n and reunions and social meetings and birthday parties because of our training and our work.

Traditional social support is essentially a pulled away from under our feet because of our careers.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[13:17] Right and what do you think as far as you know your colleagues and and particularly your seniors many of them.

In the especially surgeons at notorious for this in the US 20 30 years ago especially.

There was a famous surgery Residency program in the US that claimed they had 100% divorce rate and.

And if you didn’t make it you know if you happen to make it through they it was it was an aberration you know.

Unlikely but do you think that it’s gotten better over time at least with our colleagues or do you think our colleagues are part of the lack of support that we have.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[13:58] Yeah it’s a real it’s a real interesting way of looking at it I mean we do have very similar challenges with our social you know and this is all anecdotal because from,

one of your number is very hard to actually get a good field,

but I I remember you know going through the EMT program in our state and there was this usually about,

about 9 or so people going through each year and they always talk about this always going to be a couple of divorces that’s going to happen you know every year it’s a sad reality.

You know both from a from a from an informal point of view I think there has been a reduction in the informal support networks just,

going out for meals together drinking together and having son of social time together with with with khaliq’s I think that has decrease,

the form of support I think in a way has gotten a little bit better and in the sense that hospitals and colleges and professional colleges and academies and and state-based health institutions,

trying the best to provide some measure of formal support through again phone lines or you know.

Advice numbers to call or confidential meetings and support system like that or,

more former things like seminars on,

on on mental health of Physicians and and the light so there’s both a more formalized support.

[15:28] But at the same time I wonder how many are actually accessing those formal support systems or support services that are available one resident.

Mentioned to me you know,

we can go to all you know we can go to all the the free yoga classes that’s given to us it’s still not going to change the fact that I’m,

exhausted after doing Kohl’s for so many hours or doing research paper work,

and and everything else and there’s some truth in that there’s a challenge between providing good.

Formal support versus also creating an informal culture of support within our Medical Group.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[16:08] And I think that is a very key point because I think for many US medical students and I’m sure at the way you describing it it sounds similar and maybe even tougher and Australia that you’re so competitive,

during your medical school time to get good academic grades and like I said do research that you’re it’s very competitive with each other it’s.

It is sometimes hard for that same.

Group of people then to turn around and become it’ll colleagues with each other particularly in the fields that are even you no more competitive to get into so,

it’s almost think a badge of honor to you know I work this hard and I work in a this many hours you might be ostracized for seeking help but.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[16:52] Yeah.

[16:53] You’re absolutely right thing I think you’ve actually nailed a very good point there the badge of honor mentality in Madison is so strong and so pervasive you know every,

you walk into medical school and there’s always a price to go for you know the so-and-so prize of clinical Excellence of the sewing surprise out,

taking a specialty of otolaryngology or something and that nothing has permeated through the fact that,

you know all through our medical school and residency programs there is that that that pervasive badge of honor perfectionistic,

culture that that is.

You know on the current in our community which I wouldn’t say that that’s it it’s great because obviously it was it the next time we have to do it for the patients we have.

To be the best surgeons and Physicians and doctors who can be for patients by the same time as all that’s also a two-edged sword in that it hurts us because we’re not.

Honest enough with our self to seek support from a fellow colleagues rather than competitors.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[17:56] Right absolutely that’s that’s very true now the third thing that you mentioned was loss of meaning so what do you talk about that.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[18:06] Again with the first two of the loss of control in the loss of support those are systemic,

issues Salt Lake bigger things that probably may have multiple different possible solutions now and that’s,

those are those two losses somehow I could handle a little bit better than this third laws that are felt which is a loss of meaning and it’s hard for me to let you put it into words what is meaning of morale,

you know a sense of vocational achievement.

What I really meant was you know we all signed up to to do medicine to be a physician with an altruistic motive yes there is a desire to do well financially and the desire to do well from career point of view.

[18:51] Beneath all that it’s all desire to actually do well for a patient’s it’s a it’s a service provision for the sake of our patients,

with the industrialization commercialization or the modernization of medicine and surgery I feel that we have become just a commodity in a complex medical industry and with loss,

that sacred calling or vocation or more Isle of meaning that Drew us to Medicine in the first place and I think that’s probably one of those things where.

I was from a position of burnout when I was writing that and I realized.

You know what really Burns me up is all the additional staff that goes beyond just being a doctor to my patient was all the paperwork all the competition you know all the all the long hours in the exhaustion that I feel being dictated by.

Other factors Administration and are there any other factors and there was a real challenge for me and that maybe something that you in the US feel you know many other Physicians and other countries also feel,

is that they no longer a physician but they are a commodity they are just one of those things in the complex Factory line.

Medicine but with just one of the many encounters that are patient meet.

[20:08] And that’s a real Challenge and I think that just erodes a little bit of the meaning of medicine for me and that was something that I struggle with.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[20:15] I think it’s it’s it’s very insightful of you to you know put these ideas to paper and I think that you really have captured it in a very eloquent way what what many of us do feel and can you know you’re absolutely right here,

in the u.s. my colleagues you know most of us who have finished training in the last.

Five to ten years have have transition from what used to be predominantly private or independent practices or you know or true Academic Center.

Two employed Physicians weather there for an academic center or a true just a private Hospital.

[20:52] The independent the loss of Independence has come at a price and and some of my previous guests have have noted that that that.

That is something that that really you can’t put price tag or a financial amount on but it really does have a a sense of loss and I.

What you describe is that you lose a sense of purpose on those you you went to become a physician like you said for the altruistic thing yes you know money is good achievement is good but ultimately we want to help the patient and.

[21:25] What is happened is we have been reduced now to like you said Commodities procedure codes you know tonsillectomy for you or you know reading 10 CT scans for me in a given amount of time.

And that that that really has that I think taking its toll on on people and and more and more Physicians now.

[21:48] Or are looking to other to get out either get out of medicine or to slow down and you know what which is good and bad but it is a shame because none of us went into medicine.

[22:02] To do that we went in to help people and an external factors like you say rrr probably causing.

[22:10] Let’s let’s let’s follow up a little bit about that you talked about the industrialization of Medicine,

and some of what I read from your article and and some of the.

Share the common issues that many of his face isn’t a word that you have said and I know I’ve said it a number of times as many positions on Twitter.

Have posted this graph and I think you actually have to the growth of Administrators over time to talk about that what are you what do you think that that has contributed to an you are very careful and I think you put in a very good ways that we’re not.

[22:44] Anti administrator we both need each other but.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[22:46] Yes yes.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[22:48] But what is happened and what do you think that growth of Administrators says done.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[22:54] Yeah so I think it’s a real it’s a real challenge to think about this because we certainly need administrators leaders you know clinical leaders clinical administrators,

to help us do a better job as as doctors as Physicians we know that we live in a world of industrialization where we would like,

every doctor every physician to be playing the best and we do need that but I think the feeling that I have is that over many years which that are of employing Administrators,

and business-minded people to.

Help make the system work for us but over time it has almost taken over the whole system and I wonder whether the application of business principles from the commercial wilt.

Is truly applicable,

to the medical world what I mean by that is what I feel when I’m working for a particular institution in Australia is that I am just,

one of those guys employees down at the bottom and the health administrators are in the middle and a top.

[24:02] And that seems to be a kind of a organizational hierarchy that that is present in a lot of hospitals I kind of think of it the other way around that.

Wii.

[24:14] I work for my patient I don’t work for the health administrators the hell that Minister just work for the patient they don’t work for the Physicians it’s almost we work together.

For the sake of our patients and it’s almost just a change of that hierarchical mindset that that that I hope can happen sure there are great health administrators around who are doing exactly just that they become to support.

Crew to ensure that their Physicians and clinicians nurses doctors.

On the front line I’m playing the bass game but I also see a love institutions where it is a top-down hierarchy where the CEOs at the top.

And the internal medical sit on his right down at the bottom I think I’m mines a man that change or a paradigm shift needs to happen.

To say that the health administrators are support crew working together behind the scene beside the clinician.

[25:15] To make sure that Service delivery or provision of Care by the clinicians are at their highest.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[25:23] Absolutely I think you know one of the issues that that we discuss here often is a receipt so many administrators and.

And like you said you know in in.

Their ideas initially were probably good but they certain administrators them B get more administrators and then it just seems to to grow and and you so you have a series of people now telling you.

You know okay you need this you need to do this you need to you need to have these discharge summaries done.

And you already you already know this but now you’re getting constant you know multiple sides telling you the same thing.

And none of that contributes anything to patient care and that’s the first day of tsion that many of us feel.

[26:07] One of the other things this being a a financial podcast is that.

[26:12] You know physician incomes in the u.s. of generally been higher than the majority of the rest of the world bit Australia and Canada also are relatively High compared to other Western countries.

[26:26] But those salaries have basically been when you account for inflation.

[26:32] Flat to maybe minimally increased over time and they don’t miss silly correspond with the the growth of training times and the cost of medical school particularly not sure how it is not sure the cost of medical school in the US.

I just exploded to you know some of those people are having.

[26:51] 3 – $400,000 in dead by the time they get out but but anyway by my point is is that.

[26:58] You you see that the health care costs continue to rise astronomically in the US and then you see administrators and Hospital Executives like you were talking about of the top of the pyramid making routinely millions of dollars.

And and so the frustration for many Physicians are you know we’re we’re in we’re the ones providing the care hour.

[27:21] Other colleagues on the team the nurses the therapists are all providing the care and.

[27:28] Yet they’re not the ones yes they’re making a good living but you know.

It’s just frustrating to see the the support people like you like we described profiting from the system 2.

When patients here specifically can’t even afford care so yeah that that I think that also contributes to that loss of meeting that that you talk.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[27:50] Very similar to the Australian system as well our medical cost for Metro medical training medical school and residency training registrar training specialist training are extremely expensive,

an hour procedure codes are our salaries and have not increased by Machoke does not match.

Inflation rates we have spoken about this end in Australia we have mention this at all but it’s very hard.

For a group of doctors to a Lobby for an increase in salary because.

The society already thinks of us as already you know.

Achieving a higher income rate so for us to actually say that we would like our income to match inflation rate it’s.

Open a very challenging a struggle but yes it is there it is definitely happening in Australia as well.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[28:46] Do you think that this is just another dabal though this progression of industrialization do you think there’s anything Physicians can do to change it or do we just you know learn to live with it and and make changes personally that that will.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[29:01] I certainly hope that there we have reached at that the pendulum swing you know we have reached that point where we realize okay this is not working let’s do something about this,

if we continue down this path we’re going to lose more doctors to Suicide we’re going to lose more doctors to other careers we’re going to have a ballooning of cost and with no real,

good outcome on improve heart considered a couple of things one is personal and the other the other is is institutional so,

personal level I read an interesting study by a dr. Tait shanafelt,

Publix couple of years ago when I went where where he studied couple of thousand Physicians I think from from the Mayo group and look,

productivity in relation of satisfaction in relation to the amount of meaningful work and they found that if you did.

Meaningful work for 20% of the time and 80% mundane work.

[30:03] You had high job satisfaction rate and that’s a ceiling meaning if you did 50%.

Meaningful work and 50% of mundane work you still.

You don’t get the same amount of satisfaction so it’s almost as if the right balance is about 22 at 20% true meaningful work 80% sure paperwork Monday and administrative work.

And you could get a pretty good job satisfaction and a good.

Innocence in a job efficiency and I saw that as a personal thing and I said okay great what are the 20% work that I can do.

So I could do a great job for my patience and that 20% could be teaching could be research could be a particular study on a particular subject anything it could be leadership so if I give myself 20% of my day to doing some of those,

things I might have a much better productivity And if every one of us had that opportunity to do that,

I think it would improve all our productivity as that as Physicians,

and you know productively s institution SSN institution and you know for the bigger picture for the institution I mean that’s something that I really need to think about a burnout Doctor Who’s exhausted depressed and I’m not enjoying the work.

It’s always here physician that’s potentially going to make more errors.

You know lower productivity outputs and so is it real business sense for institutions to start thinking about improving the morale and Physicians so that they can be.

[31:34] Playing the best game so they can actually be great doctors and that would Elevate the productivity from a business sense point of view if.

That’s what they want.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[31:44] That’s very interesting because I think that you know I am not familiar with the article that you mentioned but but that seems to be what.

[31:53] Our non medical colleagues if it’s particular the companies in Silicon Valley are doing in the US such as Google Facebook I think they’re giving their employees I read somewhere where it’s up to.

20% like you described you know time to dedicate to a project.

That may not be financially beneficial for the company but may give them you know like I said a little bit more meeting and then altimate Lee that leads to more satisfaction with their hole.

Whole job and hopefully a more productive more valuable employee so that.

[32:24] That would be amazing if we could apply that to the medical world doesn’t seem to be going in that direction but I really hope with.

[32:32] People like you and and the residents that your articles have have had throughout the medical world.

That we start having these conversations a little bit more.

Let me let me ask you as you know I know you you started this campaign crazy socks for docs or something like that tell me about that what what what are you what are you what are you doing with that.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[32:54] Yep so that’s an interesting thing I didn’t quite start the campaign it was a cardiologist from Melbourne by the name of dr. Jeff too good and he came up with that idea because he was struggling with some Mental Health,

and he had some difficulties with his particular institution and essentially came up with the idea of wearing some crazy socks to highlight,

add the prevalence of mental health issues inclinations I happen to just be a megaphone microphone I try to leverage that message to bring it across to my you know social media networks in and globalnet,

what it is is the backstory was he came into work wearing two different socks and somebody said are you okay what’s wrong with you,

and that’s Rick of the conversation of mental health in the workplace and I think the message was is very simple doctors are humans.

Doctors do suffer from mental health instead of having the stigma attached to a doctor with mental health.

We should really be supporting each other and acknowledging that we need to provide better mental health support for our clinicians,

and also at the same time we need to stop thinking about mentally healthy workplace as now it’s all tied in together again with job satisfaction and your productivity if we have mentally healthy workplace us will reduce the stigma of mental health in our profession,

will it reduce the Troublesome burnout in a profession we will reduce that kind of sense of loss of meaning in loss of purpose in our in our work.

[34:30] And you know the reverse of that is if search if we we do provide at that mentally healthy workplace as we will increase pertivity I mean we can apply the stuff that you’ve merely mentioned earlier,

what’s happening with Google land and other Silicon Valley can eyes Asians to say if those employees can be maximized.

Why can’t we exclamations be maximus in our work as well at the end of the day.

There’s a patient at the end of a stereoscope at is a patient at the end of our scalpels we have to be functioning at our best and we as an institution as a community need to provide.

[35:05] Mentally healthy workplace us NS you’ve mentioned I think one of the key things about this has been that we are now talking about it’s probably a few years too late,

but at least we’re talking about it now,

and the Solutions in a country Family Practice will be very different to the Solutions in a tertiary level cardiac transplant unit to cancel all these issues that we spoken about and I think the conversation,

has been good hopefully in the next few years we will see a cultural change we need a buying,

from the institution of Leaders with regards to this topic as well but at least I do get the feeling that.

There is a Grassroots movement of the pendulum is swinging back to a more Humane world of medicine for the petitioners Within.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[35:54] I think that’s a very very well put that’s what we know we’re all looking for wheat we all,

ultimately as you said human even though sometimes were asked to do superhuman Heats and terms of the you know the difference that we put into our training so.

I think that’s that’s great let me get let me ask you one last question what what advice would you give to.

Prospective medical students or medical students were just starting out in their career as they listen to.

They’re more senior positions you know who will probably have a more jaded or more negative outlook what what would you tell them to.

To kind of give them hope.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[36:34] I think what a lot of new medical students are all prospective medical students fail is their word that they are entering into.

The world of cynicism in medicine,

where there is a turf war between clinicians and administrators I would like to say that’s not happening that that that is not the that is not the case,

at the end of the day we went into medicine with the altruistic aim of doing well for our,

patients individually and society as a whole and I think we can still say that right now if I had my time all over again I would still choose to be a physician to be a clinician to be an ENT surgeon,

still the best joke in the world,

to me the road is tough but it is also one of the most rewarding careers of available and I and I also say that let’s not worry about the really really big picture.

What happens in a day-to-day basis is great you know you can always make a small difference and a small difference in our world doesn’t have to be expensive or extensive or anything like that,

can be just small little axle with time that changes our clinic and any changes our operating rooms in and it changes our,

unit in any changes our institution so the bottom line is.

It’s a hit we are signing up for a tough profession with some challenges but it is still a very worthwhile profession with a lot of,

very personal benefits from being a from being a physician.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[38:05] Very well put let’s I want to thank you very much Eric for participating in our podcast and listeners to our podcast and follow Eric,

on Twitter at Dr Eric Levi that are d r e r i c l e v i,

or his blog at Eric Levi. And I’ll have links to your articles and to your Twitter on our show notes.

So let me ask you this what what do you have other than your impending move to New Zealand where.

Probably you’ll be a little bit more relaxed because it just seems like that’s a very relaxing.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[38:38] That’s right.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[38:40] What what do you have planned in the future for as you know after after training and end with your social media.

Dr. Eric Levi:

[38:48] Thanks it is my pleasure to be here thank you so much for contacting me it’s been an enjoyable conversation to me personally in discussion look I’m just going to enjoy New Zealand.

In the future that will ultimately return to Melbourne and obviously I’ll join the practice set up a practice and Joint Institution back there you’re pretty alluded to something,

which is the essence of the work that we do I get the most joy out of just seeing patients on a day-to-day basis in clinical,

or are on your pretty room and I and I enjoy that that’s that’s the best part of my job.

Social media has been a very fascinating experience for me I have went in just wanting to learn from people and I Have Become.

Engage with and to a lot of people to throw a discussion and social media as we accelerate.

My learning esse as a surgeon and Ivan Jordan I’ll continue to do that as to whether or not that’s going to be anything big.

Probably not I’ll be happy to just be at home you know fooling the Twitter timelines and following you and enjoying what you say as well.

Dr. Tarang Patel:

[39:59] Well thank you very much.

Episode 15 Intro Outro:

[40:02] Thanks for listening to another episode of the doctor Money Matters podcast I want to thank Dr Eric Levi for being my guest today and discussing the important and timely topic of physician burnout.

[40:15] There have been a number of physician suicides is Eric mentioned in the interview that led him to.

[40:22] Write these articles and I want to encourage those of you who are listening to speak with your colleagues and maintain the social relationships that help us deal with the enormous dresses that we face in our professions.

[40:33] I think Eric makes a point for me to point in our discussion about.

[40:38] The demise of the informal support groups that used to be more common such as happy hours or going out for coffee with residents and I think that those types of things.

[40:50] Are are as valuable if not more so now as our.

[40:57] Gets even more micromanaged from external factors I think commiserating with colleagues is probably an underrated way of dealing with these stressors.

[41:09] I know that many Physicians and administrators don’t have the best relationships but remember at the end of the day we both work for the patient so if we remember that it’ll it’ll be better for all of us.

[41:23] How you can read Eric’s articles at Eric Levi and you can follow him on Twitter.

[41:30] Dr Eric Levi I linked to both of those on the show note.

[41:34] And I want to thank you again for listening to those podcast more episodes are coming soon and whether you follow me or not on social media.

[41:45] I hope you do on Twitter @drmoneymatters I encourage more Physicians.

[41:51] To to use social media to interact with a wider array of colleagues around the world that’s how dr. Levi’s.

[42:01] Article became such a big deal and I do think that in this day and age learning to use social media to is vital to.

[42:08] Expand our networking with other Physicianis is valuable and in the long run will be beneficial for our profession.

Main Intro