Episode 20

2018, Doctor Money Matters

http://www.doctormoneymatters.com

Episode 20. Kevin Pho, MD — Kevin MD This episode is about using social media to spread your voice beyond the your local area. Obviously social media has had a tremendous impact on our lives in its relatively short existence from connecting with friends and families to how we get our news to professional development. But how can physicians and other healthcare professionals really take advantage of it and should they? I discuss this with my guest Dr. Kevin Pho. He started this website KevinMD long ago (in Internet time). He talks about how he started and how it has grown and allowed him to also become a leading physician voice. I want to thank Dr. Pho, because he agreed to do this podcast at a time when I had just started out and really had no audience. I purposely delayed releasing this episode in order to build up the audience on my own a little and I want to thank you the listeners for being part of that growth. One of the great things about social media that has allowed us to get into contact with other people like Kevin who are generous with their time and expertise. I hope he inspired you to get out there and get your voice heard on social media. It’s vitally important that people with real scientific expertise engage the public and not be drowned out by the celebrity pseudoscience. Dr. Pho’s website is at KevinMD He started a Physician Speaking Facebook group recently for physicians interested in becoming speakers. Please let your friends know about this podcast by sharing it on text, whatsapp or whatever social media platform you are on. More episodes of this podcast are available at www.doctormoneymatters.com and Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Stitcher, etc. All episodes are also now on YouTube (Audio only) and Facebook. Twitter @drmoneymatters Instagram @doctormoneymatters Please consider joining the Doctor Money Matters Facebook group. Thanks for listening and please leave us positive reviews and continue to share this podcast with your colleagues. Some other physician hosted podcasts that I recommend are: Docs Outside The Box The Hippocratic Hustle The Happy Doc Doctors Unbound The White Coat Investor There are many others, so please support your physician colleagues.

Transcript

Main Intro 

Intro Outro: 
[0:16] Welcome to this episode of deduct Money Matters podcast today’s episode is about using social media to spread your voice beyond your local reach.

[0:25] Obviously social media has had a tremendous impact on our lives and it’s relatively short existence from connecting with friends and Families 2 how we get our news to professional development.

[0:36] How can Physicians and other Healthcare professionals really take advantage of it and should they.

[0:40] I discussed this with my guest Doctor Kevin PO he started the Kevin MD website long ago and he talks about how he got started and how it’s grown and allowed him to become a leading Physicians.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[0:52] Okay welcome to another episode of the doctor Money Matters podcast I’m excited to welcome our guest today dr. Kevin Poe many of you will know him from the website.
Doctor po12 undergrad and med school and residency at the Boston University in the Boston University Medical Center in Nashua New Hampshire.

[1:14] Is Kevin MD website is one of the leading platforms on the internet for healthcare professionals to share their perspective on matters relating to their profession.

[1:23] He’s also on the editorial board of USA Today and has been interviewed by CBS News and given many addresses to physician groups and conferences.

[1:32] He’s also co-authored a book establishing managing and protecting your online reputation is social media guide to Physicians and medical practices.
Doctor Phil welcome to the podcast and thank you for coming on.

Kevin Pho, Md: 
[1:44] Thanks for having me it’s great to be here.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[1:46] So what’s this talk a bit about your background what got you into medicine and then talk a little bit after that about.

Kevin Pho, Md: 
[1:55] Sure so what are the reasons why going to medicine is because I wanted to really give patients a voice and whenever they come see a doctor there at the most vulnerable,
and we have such a dysfunctional Health Care System where patients are often silenced or they don’t have a say in terms of what happens to them so as a physician I wanted to give patient,
that voice as they navigate are dysfunctional Health Care system,
add Shirley. Has evolve throughout my career in terms of giving not only patients a voice but Physicians of voice and we’re going to be talking about the house social media gives us a platform where everyone can have a voice but it really started,
because I wanted to give patients. Voice when they’re at the most want her Bowl when they enter our Healthcare System.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[2:38] I so talk about when you started the Kevin MD site and the green said you’ve had over the years.

Kevin Pho, Md: 
[2:44] Sure be back in the spring of 2004 so that was 13 years ago when it comes to social media.
I’m pretty much a dinosaur when it comes to Health Care social media,
Acumen blogging was in its infancy back then and I really had no idea what to expect or where this was going,
so I think it started back in 2004 there was a major drug we called it was a medicine called vioxx which is Burke’s anti-inflammatory.
And I remember writing a column on that on my site talking about what patients should do what kind of questions they should ask their doctors.

[3:31] Add a few days after I publish a post I remember a patient and example I walk into the exam room in the first thing she said to me this morning and it was comforting,
to read what you had to say and now I know what kind of questions to ask and I think that was the proverbial lightbulb moment for me where I realize that,
I had a voice outside the exam room and with my blog I was able to interact with. Only one patient exam,
many patients at once and having this power.
As a physician just having this publishing power was tremendously liberating and tremendously powerful.
Obviously that has evolved over the years we not only have blogs but we also have Facebook Twitter LinkedIn YouTube we have dozens and dozens of social media platforms and it’s tremendously powerful.
Or doctors to utilize these tools. Only to connect with patients but,
will be talking about it certainly how they can use it to find her online reputations and really how to make their voices heard as our Healthcare System is evolving and I think these tools.
I’ve given this type of publishing power to the every person and of course that translate to all of us it in healthcare as well.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[4:48] And so you mentioned obviously your blog is exploded in the medical community and lots of positions now post on it and read it and see how does that change your professional life or you still practice medicine correct.

Kevin Pho, Md: 
[5:02] I do I have a primary care clinic in Nashua New Hampshire and I see patients 4 days a week still and it’s something I still have corset I love to do,
the blog gives me a balance I think that,
physician burnout certainly is a topic that is very prominent right now especially on my site and.
There are so many pressures when it comes to practicing medicine you know you do see patients every 10 to 15 minutes we’re dealing with clunky electronic medical records and one of the things I always talk to doctors what I do talk about what is that,
Physicians need to have a passion outside of clinical medicine that parallels their clinical medicine journey and for me it’s my family of course but also,
what I do on Kevin MD and having these patches really gives me that balance were,
I can only do things outside of clinical medicine but it will help me maintain my passion for clinical Madison so.
It’s been so gratifying. Not only to read what these thousands of voices have to say about what they are going through and I’ve learned so much by reading. Only their stories by patients,
but stores are patients as well if you gain their perspective so I think that having my site is really and richte I view of Medicine,
and it’s really opened up a window into the larger Healthcare world and some of the stories that they’re sharing as well.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[6:25] And so let’s talk about social media so your blog obviously started before the explosion of social media and.
Your blog is still up on the web.com also have or your side has accounts for Twitter Facebook how has social media changed your blog and then also.
How is it change your actual medical practice.

Kevin Pho, Md: 
[6:50] Sure so.

[6:53] The block has certainly evolved and I think that information consumption as a whole has also involve evolve as well people don’t just go to the website now to read information,
they consume information from different silos for instance you could either go to New York Times to read the website and you can get the New York Times feed on Facebook on Twitter you can read various New York Times podcast.
So I think that information consumption has become siloed and I’ve kind of mirror that on my side.
Obviously I have the stories on my side 68 times per day but I also broadcast those post on different silos as well specifically face,
Twitter LinkedIn I’ve Google plus I’ve Pinterest because different people consume that information in different ways,
so I think that Kevin MD is no longer doesn’t block I like to call it a day social media platform where a lot of my posts are only consumed on Kevin nd.com but also on the various social media platform as well so how does it.
Change my practice I think. I’m certainly found easier if you look at some recent studies.
About half of caitians they Google their doctors before they see them and when my name is Google. Obviously my various online assets come up.
Not only but also on Facebook and Twitter so people can proverbially meet me before they see me in the exam room and it’s also giving me a semblance of control over how I appear online I’m no longer just defined by a.

[8:23] Random physician rating site but by being active in social media it’s may be proactive in terms of how I appear online I can have some semblance of control of what my Google,
present is and I think going forward that’s tremendously powerful because one more doctors are going to be online whether you like it or not,
and 1 more patients are going to be Googling their doctor so I think it’s important for everyone and health care whether you’re a doctor or a dentist or at Allied Health professional to have that control your online presence because,
whether you like it or not if they don’t do themselves other people are going to do it for them.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[8:58] The average physician today sees that okay it may have a personal Facebook account.
Certain about Twitter profile other than just sharing their typical Facebook friends and family post.
How do you encourage them to actually get more professionally involved.

Kevin Pho, Md: 
[9:22] I talked to doctors.
There are a little bit apprehensive about social media they always hear social media from her perspective of risk I’m sure they get talks at the hospital or at the clinic from Risk Managers and lawyers and,
they always show stories front page headlines about doctors and nurses getting fired because they’re taking pictures of,
people’s body parts in the operating room in the emergency room right is it so you can hear stories like that all the time so if you’re a practicing physician.

[9:51] You ask yourself why the heck am I going to be using social media has nothing positive could ever come of it,
so what I do is I try to present social media from a perspective of a more positive perspective and I think it does have tremendous positives for physician I normally start by Googling a physician’s name,
and a lot of them are surprised because they already have it all in present.
And that’s in the form of East physician rating sites like ratemds or health grades are vitals whether doctors like it or not they already have that type of all my presents and they could be populated by less-than-stellar rating so.
For a lot of doctors that’s really the type of lightbulb moment they say Hey you know I already have it all in present but I’m not in control of it so what should they do to take control their online presence.
I always recommend LinkedIn first LinkedIn is as you know a professional social network and simply.
Filling out a LinkedIn profile is just a digital translation of one’s CV so just put in your CV in a LinkedIn and,
and put in a nice picture and you put in a summary and you have a complete LinkedIn profile that gets ranked high on Google searches and in a lot of cases can even above things like healthgrades these and push them lower down on the search page so they become less visible.
So that’s number one and number two I recommend doximity doximity is a physician social network,
add again a profile there is just a translation of your CV in fact you could even upload to see Vita doximity and they will have staff members enter it in into their profile for you so those.

[11:30] Start off with at a minimum and doing that probably takes a few hours to do at most and then I have to do that position should stop.

[11:39] Awesome sauce what did he want to use social media for and if the answer is nothing.
Then that’s better than nothing I think that what they’ve done already by creating a profile on LinkedIn and doximity is.
Plenty powerful enough I will put them ahead of the game compared to the majority of their peers.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[11:57] And how about goes that may want to go a little bit further what platforms would you.

[12:03] As far as professional development goes what platforms besides like you said doximity in LinkedIn would you establish your md present as your personal Facebook page.

[12:15] Any recommendations that way or.

Kevin Pho, Md: 
[12:18] I’m going to refrain that question I’m going to ask.
What’s their ultimate goal when they come to use social media to use social media to connect and educate patients.
Do you want to use social media to connect with your colleagues.
Social media to advocate for a cause or Health Care reform topics and depending on what their goals are there are specific social media platforms that fit those goals.
For Cynthia physician are interested in connecting with patients.
I think having a professional Facebook page is tremendously powerful if you want to do video to connect with patients they can certainly do YouTube or,
again a Facebook page if you want to connect with colleagues I think Twitter is probably better suited for that because there’s a lot of professional conversations that happened on Twitter or they can start a blog.

[13:07] But if you want to cry I think is really the ultimate social media and point then they should certainly start a blog created videos on YouTube or Facebook I think and then.
They could do what I do and disseminate information on the various social media silos that’s around that so.

[13:27] The answer to that is really what did he want to use social media for and depending on those goals they are various platforms that best fit those specific goals and Physicians are going to realize that the more social media platforms that they engaging,
the bigger their online presence will be anyway so rather than approaching it from a question what social media platform should be engaging start with a goals first.
And then the presents would sort itself out as usual should be to fit those goals.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[13:54] And depending on what your goal would be would you recommend doing it yourself hiring a social media marketing person what are your thoughts on that.

Kevin Pho, Md: 
[14:04] So I think that there are pros and cons to both obviously when you do social media yourself it does take a little bit of time but I think that if you can do yourself you should because you should educate yourself,
with these tools because social media isn’t going away patients are going to be used to a certain amount of transparency,
if you see out of their Industries whether you go to Amazon whether you book a hotel Airline restaurant is a certain amount of transparency to other industries that.
People are going to expect.
Eventually Healthcare going to catch up to that so there’s a certain expectation that patients are going to have so I think as Physicians we do need to educate ourselves with the various tools that are available to us,
call Sabor Portland that if is this themselves you social media isn’t there a voice it’s a more authentic voice rather than Outsourcing it to,
a social media marketer so it’s best that position learn how to use these tools and speak with their own voice.

[15:02] That being said if you’re a busy doctor and you really don’t have the time for this yes spending the money and Outsourcing it to a social media consultant is better than nothing is better than having no social media presence so if your choices are.
Not doing it all versus Outsourcing it then yes Outsourcing it probably would be better than nothing.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[15:20] And I think a lot of people think they well I can understand for those positions or dentist if you don’t have their own practice or trying to promote their private practice but.

[15:31] What about for those who are employed and they don’t really trying to drum up business do you still think that it’s important to establish a presence.

Kevin Pho, Md: 
[15:41] I do because even if you work for a hospital or a large employer when a patient sees a particular doctor they’re not necessarily going to Google.
Calle De Mayo Clinic and I’m going to Google the Kaiser Permanente they’re going to still Google that individual doctor you know I’m seeing dr. Poe.

[15:57] I would have Google that doctor and I what comes up is still,
information specifically. Physicians name is not going to be specific that institution so I do think that is important for every physician whether they work independently or work for a large Healthcare conglomerate to take charge of their individual online presence also you may not be with that same employer.

[16:19] Forever right people change jobs so I think that’s also important that you take control of your own individual online presence in you don’t want to leave that in the hands of your employer.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[16:27] So now let’s flip to the other side of things that you see many young medical students residence pre-meds they have large social media following.

[16:38] What cautions advice would you have for them before they even really are into their prime practice here is about social media.

Kevin Pho, Md: 
[16:46] I think that they should evaluate what’s been written to pass and assume that residency directors and credentialing committees are Googling them.
Because they are and I know for a fact that hospital credentialing committees Google every applicant I know residency directors a Google applicants so it’s tremendously important to be aware of what comes up when your name is Google. What’s public on your Facebook profile what’s public on,
Instagram you want to be aware of that in and cleaned it up obviously because,
Stoli is that going to cost you when you apply for residency or apply for a job but also prospective patients are going to be seeing this as well when they Google Google you looking for a physician so.

[17:28] I always have a rule of thumb when I talk to every position weather do young and old it’s called the elevator test and it goes like this whatever is posted online.
It needs to be appropriate if you say it aloud in the crowd at hospital elevator,
so I think you want that to be the minimum standard when it comes to your public presence is on every social media Network.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[17:49] I think I just got a good base line for anything because I feel.
A lot of people social media and then on the flip side a lot of people have social media.
Sometimes a little bit to open but then that just maybe the sign of the times.

Kevin Pho, Md: 
[18:13] Absolutely and I think that position they need to realize that fair or not we are held to a higher standard in the public compared to,
anyone else so what we say or do obviously reflection not only are cells but of the profession,
of who we work for as well and the consequences that Physicians face is greater than most every profession so whether that’s fair or not. That’s part of the burden of responsibility of being a physician so I think that’s something that we all have to keep in mind.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[18:42] I do want to talk about your coaching program that you have and what Physicians can gain from that.

Kevin Pho, Md: 
[18:50] Church so I recently started a physician,
coaching program because I realize that a lot of the skills that we talked about in this podcast latest not known by a lot of doctors,
specifically using social media to Define your online reputation I went over some Basics but you’re certainly more to do than that,
are there a lot of doctors who want to step outside of their clinical work and they wanted to be a speaker they want to Keynote medical conferences and in order to do that you have to build an online platform,
so I’ve been doing this for 13 years now and,
I can say that annoying and learning all of this stuff online that’s almost like having another degree almost right in the actually don’t teach this in medical school and residency,
so I definitely wanted to give other Physicians and health professionals an opportunity where I can share my knowledge and Coach them one or one.
To realize our goals.
I would work with some Internet only to find her all the reputation but if they want I can expand their social media platform and I could share exactly what I do too,
help some of my pieces go viral and be heard and also I can certainly coach him in terms of,
being a speaker and what event organizers are looking for when you’re looking for a physician keynote speaker how to structure 2 talks how to deliver talks how to work on your visuals what are some of the Cutting Edge trends when it comes to Keynote speaking,
because this is stuff that no one taught me I had to.
Do a lot of research and other Industries in and take my own lumps on to Chino circuit as well and I think that this is valuable information to pass on to.

[20:25] Position because this type of stuff isn’t readily available.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[20:29] I think you know there’s so much to learn in medical school.
Unfortunately so much gets crowded out and aside from just the medical knowledge that we have to continuously educate ourselves on.
There’s an entire other realm of business and personal knowledge and things like that that kind of get pushed aside but also need to be put in the curriculum whether it’s a medical school residency or what not so it’s great that they sell for doing these kind of things and helping.
Other Physicians out.
Doctor but I want to thank you for appearing on the podcast I did have another quick question. What do you see in the next 5 or 10 years or a Kevin MD.

Kevin Pho, Md: 
[21:06] I’m certainly happy with my current trajectory it’s now platform where thousands of healthcare,
voices can tell their stories and get their voices heard and as you know with our Healthcare System there’s always going to be,
topics to talk about so I see continued growth I see the platform enlarging and I see that this is a needed platform because doctors,
often don’t have a voice when you read New York Times on the editorial Pages you see a lot of doctors who unnecessarily Frontline clinician,
they don’t necessarily see patients and I think it’s important to have the voice of the practicing physician out there because if we don’t have a say if we don’t make decisions,
these decisions will be imposed on us by politicians and non practicing clinicians,
so I think Kevin MD is going to grow in importance I think that it’s one of the few if only platforms where doctors can have that prominent publishing space where they can tell their Frontline stories and I think about voice is going to be tremendously.
Important as we move forward because as Physicians we cannot be marginalizing to healthcare debate.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[22:12] City of our listeners one to get an article or something published on Kevin & Bean how do they do that.

Kevin Pho, Md: 
[22:19] Go to Kevin md.com and I’ll stop there is a contribution tab with a specific instructions on what type of articles I like.
I can tell you right off the bat I like stories I think stories are very powerful and I think that the public.
They don’t have access to a lot of physician story so I am partial to some of the stories that positions face everyday but they can go to Kevin nd.com and go to the Contra butab and will be instructions there and how they can contribute.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[22:49] And if they wanted to get your book that we mentioned earlier about social media is that available on your website as well.

Kevin Pho, Md: 
[22:57] It is available on the website as well as Amazon so you go to Kevin md.com and click the book top and it’s establishing managing and protecting your online reputation and also if you’re interested in coaching as well it’s all on coming to me.com so it’s easier.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[23:12] Alright well thank you very much I appreciate you coming on the podcast and we look forward to it more great things from Kevin MD and end yourself in the future.

Kevin Pho, Md: 
[23:20] Fantastic thanks for having me on.

Intro Outro: 
[23:23] I want to thank dr. PO for agreeing to do this podcast.

[23:29] He had agreed to do this podcast of the time when I just started out and really had no audience I purposely delayed releasing this episode in order to build up the audience on my own a little bit and I want to thank you the listeners for being part of that growth.

[23:41] What are the great things about social media is that it’s allowed us to get into contact with people like dr. Poe who are generous with their time and expertise I hope he inspired you to get out there and get your voice heard on social media.

[23:55] It’s vitally important that Physicians and other Healthcare professionals with real scientific expertise and gauge the public and not be drowned out by the celebrity pseudoscience that’s.

[24:06] Becoming more and more prevalent.

[24:09] Decompose website is Kevin MD I’m sure you all heard of it just Google Kevin MD or Kevin md.com.

[24:18] He also recently started a physician speaking Facebook group in order to help Physicians develop into.

[24:25] Speakers at conventions conferences and in front of meetings and so I could you to join his group.

[24:35] How to encourage you to join my doctor Money Matters Facebook group or we discussed Financial topics.

[24:40] And share this podcast with your friends and colleagues by text WhatsApp or whatever social media platform that you currently are on you can.

[24:51] Listen to this podcast on Apple podcast Google play Stitcher.

[24:56] And the episodes are now also available on YouTube and as usual you can follow me on Twitter at Dr Money Matters or.

[25:04] Facebook doctor Money Matters or Instagram doctor Money Matters in on Facebook and Instagram it’s doctor spelled out.

[25:13] So thanks again for listening please leave positive reviews for this and any other part.

Main Intro 

Transcribed by Google Voice recognition. Please excuse any transcription errors.

 

Episode 19 Doctor Money Matters.

On this episode, my guest is Dr. Bonnie Koo, a dermatologist/finance blogger who is helping educate physicians about the essentials in personal finance. Since we recorded this episode, Bonnie has had many changes in her life including becoming a mother, moving from NY to Philadelphia (Super bowl Champs) and changing her practice type from employed to private practice. Many of you may have heard Bonnie on the Hippocratic Hustle podcast hosted by my fellow physician and podcaster Dr. Carrie Reynolds. In this episode, we talk about some of the issues for those in high income areas, how Bonnie transitioned from a different field into medicine, and how she became interested in finance. She is well on her way to achieving financial success despite a later start in the medical field than most. Since the last episode, the stock market had a minor correction. Its important to not let the swings in the stock market change your overall investment mindset. This is just noise and it should not deter you from investing. If anything, consider the recent drop which has partially recovered, a small sale. Cryptocurrencies on the other hand have had a major correction, which also have partially recovered. I am not going to give any recommendation on those however. Bonnie’s Blog is at www.missbonniemd.com Please let your friends know about this podcast by sharing it on text, whatsapp or whatever social media platform you are on. More episodes of this podcast are available at www.doctormoneymatters.com and Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Stitcher, etc. All episodes are also now on YouTube (Audio only) and Facebook. You can follow me on twitter @drmoneymatters Please consider joining the Doctor Money Matters Facebook group. Thanks for listening and please leave us positive reviews and continue to share this podcast with your colleagues.

Transcript

Main Intro 

Dr. Tarang Patel: 
[0:17] Okay thanks for joining me on another episode of the doctor Money Matters podcast my guess today is dr. Bonnie Koo and dermatologist and financial blogger was helping educate Physicians about the essential oils in personal finance.

[0:30] Since we recorded this episode by has had many changes in her life including becoming a mother moving from New York City to Philadelphia the home of the Super Bowl champion Eagles.

[0:40] And changing her practice from an employee practice to a private practice Ma.

[0:46] Many of you may have heard Bonnie on the Hippocratic hustle podcast hosted by my fellow physician podcaster doctor carry rental.

[0:53] In this episode we talk about some of the issues for those in high-income areas how Bonnie transition from a.

[1:01] Different field into medicine and how she became interested in finance she’s well on her way to achieving financial success despite a relatively later start in medicine than many of your calling.

[1:14] Since the last episode of the stock market is that a minor correction it’s important not to let the swings of the stock market change your overall investing mindset.

[1:25] It’s just noise and shouldn’t deter you from investing if anything consider the recent drop which is partially recovered a small sale.

[1:34] Cryptocurrencies on the other end of had a major correction which is also partially recovered. no recommendations on cryptocurrencies however.

[1:43] Okay without further Ado Miss Bonnie MD.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[1:47] Welcome to another episode of the doctor Money Matters podcast My guest today is Bonnie Koo MD from Miss Bonnie md.com she’s a dermatologist in Brooklyn and you work out in Long Island is that correct?

Bonnie Koo, Md: 
[2:03] Yes so that the commute is not the greatest.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[2:06] But you do live in one of the more expensive areas in the country which will definitely talk about but before we talk about the financial topics just tell me a little bit about your background what got you into medicine and dermatology specifically.

Bonnie Koo, Md: 
[2:21] Sure so I grew up in the New York area pretty much my whole life I grew up in New Jersey and then I went to,
College in New York City at medical school I went to Barnard college versus an all-women’s School part of Columbia University,
and then I did medical school at Columbia as well but I had a little bit of a detour I didn’t go to med school until I was 27 I actually worked at Morgan Stanley for about 4 years.
That is a banker though I worked in their Technology Group so actually worked as a Unix systems administrator I’m not sure if you know what that means.
I don’t I don’t remember what that means either to be honest.

[2:59] If a car has been somewhat helpful with blocking actually with your deciphering some CSS code and try to do things myself but any case I did that for 4 years even though I had no background in that I majored in Biochemistry.
In college but actually worked at the computer lab is my part time job during college so that job is actually.
A direct line to working for Morgan Stanley apparently it’s a lot of people end up working there but,
anyway it was really great working there it was nice to have a job and then I was paid pretty well my plan was to work there for maybe a year or two and then go to medical school so,
still intended to go there but just kind of took a little bit longer and you want to keep raising your salary and give you nice bonuses it’s hard to.
Eventually you know I knew this wasn’t the job I want to do forever so I eventually applied and that kind of brought me to where I am now but in terms of Dermatology.
I think would have started med school and it wasn’t even that long ago but I was interested in both medicine and dermatology and I really liked both quite a bit.
And the.
I guess they said of the Nets that I really enjoyed was for the interface between medicine Dermatology so specifically inpatient consult,
so that’s actually what I do now so I’m over by the Sea program and when I started I was the director of the,
inpatient Derm cancel service where I work right now.
And but I sold mainly see patients in the outpatient setting but I also see patients in the hospital which most dermatologist don’t do.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[4:31] It’s true it’s a rare sighting when we see a dermatologist at our facility but that’s good I’d say you’re an academic medicine so what made you interested in the financial aspects in Dino starting your blog.

Bonnie Koo, Md: 
[4:46] So that’s.

[4:49] I didn’t know anything for a very long time the only thing I knew was I would look at my paycheck literally before I want to spend money on if there’s money there in like how I could spend it that’s literally how I conducted myself which was not good obviously so I actually,
author of money during residency and definitely was not living within my means and then my flasher residency just overheard some co-residents,
those guys talking about money and they talk about money all the time so they both were into investing and so I kind of knew that about them but this time I guess I kind of was more interested in what they had to talk about and they kind of looked at me and said hey you should read that book the white coat investor,
and I did I bought it and I read it and that’s kind of when it starts basically so really I I kind of feel like I.
Learn it at the right time because I think once you become an attending and you can develop some habits it’s so much harder to reverse I think.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[5:44] Absolutely and you’re you’re right learning as a resident or even as a med student is ideal but I take whatever you can get your head wrapped around some of the concepts that dr. Ali talks about in his book.
It always is always good but definitely the earlier you can do that the better off you are.
So let’s talk about a little bit about your website so where is Miss Bonnie MD and what are you trying to do with that.

Bonnie Koo, Md: 
[6:10] So the reason why I even started was the others as Facebook group online you may have heard of The Physician moms group.
That’s sort of the large group of physician mom has to be mom to be in it cuz I was not a mom or pregnant when I joined the group,
more open but yeah there’s a lot of spin-off groups for every topic you can imagine like literally and then for every location so there’s one for New York City there’s one for every major city is a great way to network but there’s one for personal finance and I think,
SRTA bus I got into one of my another dermatologist friend who was in the group she’s like oh you know I should add you to this group so I just you know she added me and then.

[6:55] I sort of noticed that I had a certain knowledge base and.
And I notice I was sort of Saint answering the same question over and over again and running at the same thing it is kind of hard Jim got started actually so and then add a few friends City to you really should start a blog know the only people out there are men.
That’s kind of how it’s got started but I don’t really have a sound like I had a vision in my when I start I just.

[7:19] Peter had some things to say and some topics and so it’s kind of how it started and then I kind of like Jamie basically write about what you know what pertains to you so that’s kind of how I started.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[7:30] And so as you if you know you’ve been working on this blog and and and talking to your colleagues other female positions on the Facebook group what are some of the common issues that that you’re seeing.

Bonnie Koo, Md: 
[7:43] I think the same things that come up for the non female visit you know basically life insurance disability insurance you know I think there’s a lot of its,
they’re not topics that are easy to understand. You know I’ll be honest when I was a resident I did hear about disability insurance a lot actually there is one resident a few years ahead of me had it,
and so she actually would organize is a little dinners with her disability insurance agent and I want to thank those free food you know how it is,
I honestly had no idea what it was it sounds like a scam to me at the time to remember.
Hearing about how much it would cost me on his present like anything over a hundred bucks a month is like what I’m not paying that so I just kind of ignored it.
I see that a lot it’s you know it’s.
Does different companies offer all these different writers I made it safely not an easy topic understanding for women is much more expensive for us in general,
and then especially if you’ve had if you get it after you’ve had children things that really are not medical issues these companies consider as medical issues and we’ll sort of ding you for that for example did you know that having a c-section is considered,
best going through infertility treatments.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[8:53] I didn’t know that but honestly the way insurance companies work I’m not surprised.

Bonnie Koo, Md: 
[8:56] Yeah so love and don’t know this and they’re surprised and really upset about this so you know something I really try to tell women is you know even when you’re single and.
That’s actually the best time to get these insurances so.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[9:11] Early is good but like you said it’s really tough to convince.
A resident to put money out for something that they statistically there but they’re not going to need it for a long time at least but the icky advice I think that most people would tell you to try to get it.
Before you finish training but earlier is better even if you do it as a younger attending.

[9:31] So so yeah I know that’s good and you’re right I think most of these issues are not specific to women positions are just just specific to people in general but it’s good that you’re able to find a voice within that community and and help out.
Are physician colleagues and the podcast that you do with Carrie Reynolds hip hop hustle podcast.
Pretty open about your financial goals you actually had an article that came out today actually published numbers.
That you want to achieve tell me a little bit about that first of all why are you so open about it I think most most doctors are very close about those kind of topics and I’m glad that you are open and then specifically how you know you’re you’re trying to get.

Bonnie Koo, Md: 
[10:17] Yeah well.
I think Jim and session of fire pretty open about their certain aspects of their financial life and so I just feel like you know the more people want to see examples of things,
so that’s how you relate I guess two people so I have no issues putting my goals out there you know whether I’ll meet them is another story right but it’s it does definitely.
Put me on the spot the spotlight but sir to keeps me a little bit accountable like I definitely feel like oh I really got to stick to the plan I’ll let you know obviously things can change but.
I think it actually is a good motivator and that respect but in terms of the number is so you know we chose you know we mean.
Me and my fiance sort of not based on spending habits where she still trying to figure out what are true spending is actually just added him to my YNAB budgeting system,
so like literally the first of July so we’ll see how he does I think he spends more than he thinks but we’ll see. A spender but you know a little bit here and there and people don’t you know if you don’t track your spending you really don’t know what’s going on so.
We just kind of picked a number that seems reasonable to us so I think.
Our financial Independence number we picked is 5 million so that would give us approximately 200 Grand a year of income butts before being taxed obviously so I think that’s a lot more than we would need but I guess you know,
we’re hoping to still be,
still physically active and mentally and we would like to travel and started because I didn’t save enough money.

[11:58] So I think three million would actually be more than a sufficient but as you know.
Skulls change Health changes with the future cost of healthcare as a big unknown so I just I just feel like the more the better.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[12:10] Right right and then and that’s true you can only plan for what you can anticipate but you’re absolutely right we don’t know what’s going to happen with health care cost weed.
No changes in in political administrations will always impact those type of things so that you know you do the best you can do.
And generally being a little bit more conservative you know exactly what you’re saying is you don’t Maybe,
planning a little bit more savings than what you initially thought is never a bad thing but you know but that being said it seems like a really tough number especially when you’re a young resident or just just getting out and you have.
All these student loans and things like that so to get to this number whether you talk about it.

[12:53] What kind of savings rate do you you know do you think that you have to have to do that and and is it really impacting your lifestyle currently.

Bonnie Koo, Md: 
[13:03] Ask her a question I mean so obviously they pull these numbers out of a hat and terms of are we going to reach them in x amount of years we sort of did some planning.
So we actually have a fanshel advisor so she,
confirm that we would meet these numbers at these times but sometimes I’m I’m like are you sure it’s like I just realistic but I do trust her so,
but I have figured that out on my own to just using simple compound interest calculators and are how much money we’re putting away that it was feasible but.
Between the two of us we actually have a lot of tax advantage retirement space something to the order of 80 or $90,000 a year that’s before we even have to contribute to a taxable account.
That’s a pretty large amount that’s mainly because I have a 403b of 457 b a through my hospital system they actually have a generous contribution that sends up smell like $20,000 a year there’s there’s some cash pension plan.
they completely fine. I don’t contribute just a lot but you know so I’ll take its free money right we both do a backdoor Roth IRA.
And he has a 403b through his work so.

[14:10] And you know he is not a physician and he had been working for some time so he had some money already saving his accounts as well.
But we plan to continue to save pretty you know so our goal is to basically max out all these accounts before.

[14:27] Paying off debt which is basically my student loans and I guess his mortgage.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[14:31] And so when you talk about this number is that assuming that at that point in the mortgage and everything else your loans will be paid out that you is that what you’re saying and then you hit this number.

Bonnie Koo, Md: 
[14:43] I’m at the 5 million.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[14:45] Yeah I’m just trying to figure out because you know it is either you’re still going to be.
So on your website about 5 million by the 2031 you’re going to be 54 so you really.
United the general retirement age so if you start withdrawing from taxable Accounts at that point you know you going to be paying additional penalties and stuff like that.
Shiny brass your thought process a little.

Bonnie Koo, Md: 
[15:08] Oh yeah sure so I actually just,
does the North country with my loans and they should be they should be paid off by the end of 2020 although it might go another year setsuna Within,
yeah I have about $150,000 left at this point and I ate there both refinanced I could have taken advantage of Public service loan forgiveness but I totally missed that boat I would have had like two or three years left at this point but it’s all right you know.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[15:34] Right right well a lot of people I mean I know that in my,
residency group I think the majority of us didn’t even know about this type of thing you know so yeah I’m happy for them but most people I have probably.
Not qualified or at least extended their windows so you’re part of it you’re part of the majority on that.

Bonnie Koo, Md: 
[15:58] Yeah so I but they’re my laundry files to very low you know very good rates one of them actually fix at 2.25% so I’m not too upset about that so they’re they’re kind of on autopilot and I basically yeah pay the,
what are the required monthly amount is plus the way I’m paid as I’m paid a base salary and a bonus and I pretty much pretend I don’t get a bonus cuz it is variable so I just threw most of the bonus at the debt.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[16:24] And you I mean are you factoring in you think you’ll stay at this job through your numbers that you’re calculating or even if you change careers rather go to private practice or something like that.

Bonnie Koo, Md: 
[16:36] I’ve no idea how long I mean statistics will say that I probably won’t be at this job forever,
so my immediate goal is to see how fast I can go to a party tonight,
practicing for 2 years but I think the commute is getting to me so I think supposedly after I come back from maternity leave I’ll be getting 2 days very close by in the city so I don’t have to drive,
so much so I think that’ll be a big change to my quality of life right now.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[17:06] Well it’s actually so kind of diverging from that the topic just a little bit you have only been practicing for a couple years and you’re talking about going part-time and and that seems to be a big topic amongst a lot of Physicians and.

[17:21] Whether you’ve been practicing all your short time or the ones who have been practicing out for 15 20 plus years.
Why do you think that is it in obviously something to do with a degree of burn out.

Bonnie Koo, Md: 
[17:33] Yeah I think I can only speak for myself obviously so first of all I feel,
kind of weird saying this but you know full time dermatologist 4 days a week first of all it’s not 5 to 6 so you’re my fiance actually says I already work part-time,
but I think if you a couple of my commute then it’s it makes it pretty bad my team could be anywhere between a 2 and 3 hours a day,
times for so it adds on quite a lot of time and then just frustration with traffic but I think I don’t know if burn out.
Is the right term but I think you know the practice of methi already I’ll just write it just like I love being a dermatologist but.
I’m sure you love being a radiologist but you know that they’ve made it much harder to just practice medicine it’s paperwork the ammar’s all these requirements these licenses you got to renew every year that I guess it’s just money but.
And then I think there’s a complete shift in the mentality of patients that were this customer service oriented profession or not they’re able to write Yelp reviews and then we can’t write back because of HIPAA.
My Hospital participates in Prescott I don’t know if yours is at 2 so when I first started practicing and I got my first bad review and it was heartbreaking to get that.
I mean I know I’m not going to make everyone happy,
Oriole to treat everyone we obviously think I’m a very good dermatologist but I don’t know everything but I think it’s it’s it’s become too easy for patients to complain about doctors and in my opinion they really are not qualified to make that.

[19:03] I mean they’re not. They don’t they don’t they don’t know medicine so obviously if a doctor treats them poorly in terms of if you know being tree that’s a different story but I don’t think patients are qualified to say whether the doctor did a great job or not so.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[19:17] Right now it’s it’s true and I think a lot of these external factors have become just more and more.
Of an issue and I think as Physicians are losing.
Some control of their own practice is I mean honestly I’m an employee position you’re an employee position and that Trend it has only accelerated over the last you know 5 years and seems to have no sign of changing and so.
When you work on your own practice you know you had control over a lot of different things but now.
Stuff that you talked about with the patient is one aspect but then you have administrators on the flip side making issues about things also and so I think those kind of things that as positions of lost control over time.
The overall Joy I think is been slowly you know sucked out of a lot of medicine again like you said that you love Dermatology I really do love like Radiology I actually like doing the practice Radiology it’s the other stuff.
That seems to be encroaching more and more upon my time and so.

[20:20] That that’s the issues I think many of his face singing I think that’s one of the reasons that you start seeing these these topics about gaining Financial Independence in and just.

[20:29] Whether you gain Financial Independence to retire early or not it is you know not the point I think the job satisfaction that people will will have when they don’t have to work.
Seems to also change a little bit so you know that you always leave the job if you absolutely hated.

Bonnie Koo, Md: 
[20:48] Yeah I mean I think most of us can say that if your employed look we both are that there is there’s expectations of how many.
For me how many patients to see etcetera and,
am I sort of Ideal World when I can you know work or basically work less than oh I don’t need a full salary I would like to go from being having five patients on my schedule to maybe you know for things like that were you know I can really just,
really enjoy being a dermatologist and not have to worry about meeting numbers and things like that so that’s also something I’m looking forward to it as well.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[21:20] Right right so,
I think you know I think the lot of these logs such as yours and they convention position on fire obviously white coat investor are are great for doctors and however they get this information I think it is,
it all timidly benefits all of us as physician so I want to thank you for,
empowering positions to kind of take some Financial control I wish they taught the stuff in medical school but you know we’ll take it wherever we get the information from let me talk about a little York so you do have you know a Heights.
High Cost of Living compared to most of the people in in the in the u.s. how is that impacting you because generally speaking.
Most Fields you know New York tends to pay correspondingly higher but obviously medicine a lot of us know that.
It tends to work inverse you you’re the higher cost of area and you get paid less competitively so.

Bonnie Koo, Md: 
[22:15] I know that’s a huge bummer.
Yeah I grew up in this area so my parents are in New Jersey and not too far away and then.
I guess I can call myself a New York I think once you’ve lived here for 10 years you’re allowed to call yourself a New Yorker so I think if you know from here and you love New York City if it’s a hard place to leave although I’ll be honest like we are not.
Mary just staying here forever like I think we both really enjoy it now,
but it’s not something else you know we have talked about leaving New York City you know maybe in 5 to 10 years but in terms of the other cost of living is astronomical I mean the rent it I think housing is really the,
the big cost I mean it’s it’s not unheard of to hear of people spending half their paychecks on rent so.
I think doctors to you don’t because you’re married and you have kids like you know you’re going to have at least a two bedroom.
Two bath apartment and that’s actually a lot of money in New York city so,
the reason why I can still save the money that we talked about earlier. Where is mainly because my fiance,
bought his condo in 2000 so some people make fun of me and think the only reason why with him is because for a cheap condo you know what he just,
it’s not like he was thinking that this is going to be a great investment he literally bought this condo for a down payment of $20,000 which yearly.
What can I get you anything in terms of real estate at this point so it’s it’s it’s very small actually discuss house I think it’s.
And publicly I said it’s 730 square feet which for most people that don’t live in New York City would be completely unacceptable it’s a two-bedroom one-bath it’s in a great part of Brooklyn.

[23:54] The value has gone up significantly since he bought it and the mortgage is ridiculously low it’s it’s so low that you can’t you can barely even rent a room for that price list put that way.

[24:06] So that’s that obviously helps.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[24:08] I know that’s definitely true I did my residency in New York.
What are the positives of the program had at subsidized housing and you know what.

[24:20] Whenever we had residents come by medical students come by for interviews the department and stuff but ultimately say can we see you guys Apartments.

[24:34] And so you don’t even at the time it was still if you can talk to some of the people from the wrestler country 10-12 years ago.
One bedroom 700 square foot apartment that’s fine it was like 1300 and that was subsidized at that point it would have been like 2500 for.
Unsubsidized housing but now I’m sure it’s you know closer to $4,000 but yeah.

[24:58] Although I do regret in a sense because it was around the time that your fiance bought his condo I regret not.
In thinking about buying it at that point because I had a friend who did and she did extremely well you know even though it was tougher to do as a as a resident but definitely cost.

Bonnie Koo, Md: 
[25:15] Mindset yeah.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[25:16] Yeah yeah I wish I had the white coat investor stuff back then.

Bonnie Koo, Md: 
[25:20] Right yeah I think the value of his condo has quadrupled since you bought it.
So when you bought it was actually what crappy neighborhood that happens a lot in New York City where you yes just become so gentrifying the last 20 years but it literally was not a great place to live at all but the kind of give you a sense of how,
great it is now is a we live next door to Blue Bottle Coffee.
Which is a very nice coffee place based out of San Francisco and we live 2 blocks from the only Trader Joe’s in Brooklyn.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[25:51] Nice picture.
I think what I was living in New York in a Brooklyn.
Had slowly start identifying wood stove is a mostly Park Slope and some of the other areas and and Dumbo was just getting started so I know that those things are in obviously Brooklyn has become even more and more.
How does in Manhattan to a degree because it seems like a lot of good restaurants and things are now in Brooklyn.
So I need to make a trip out to Brooklyn now instead of just going to Manhattan whenever I come out there.
But good well I think this has been a good discussion I’m glad to see that pretty much no matter where where Physicians are we we can evolve.
At least in the u.s. there are facing some of the same issues and I think lack of financial knowledge is has been a big problem and previously doctors could kind of overcome. Just because.

[26:45] Their incomes were so high and loans and things weren’t so bad but now you.
You really have to do this early on or you’ll heal face these issues for a long time so let me know.
Just kind of you know if it is any bit of advice that you would have to someone who’s in medical school or residency now like what’s one thing that they could do to.
To kind of get on the right track.

Bonnie Koo, Md: 
[27:09] I honestly think the other loves you so many things I could,
discuss but I think the top thing mainly because I wish I did this was just really live within your means I mean,
you can’t live within your means as a resident you’re in trouble and I think one thing to keep in mind is your the rest of most of America lives on a resident salary or less.
And she’s a family of four like actually my family growing up and I had a brother so you know.
Two two adults two kids I think we never really brought in much more than 50 or 60 Grand a year or so but I don’t know for sure what they made but.
I think if you really remember that.
It. Only gives you perspective for yourself that you know you should be able to do this to you don’t need to lease that Mercedes during residency I see a lot of residents doing that to be honest and also I think it gives you perspective as a position cuz most of your patients are not going to be wealthy.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[28:01] Absolutely absolutely agreed to extend that over the first few years as well as a lot of people say you know try to live like a resident for even let you know the first few years just just a hammer those loans down as much as you can.
I just sent your mindset to improve your savings right and things I think definitely good good advice it’s tough to do because lot of us have been.

[28:26] Delayed gratification for a long time going to medical school again allow the long years of training so it’s a tough thing to do but it is very important so.
I think that’s think that’s really good and I want to encourage people to in a visit your website it’s Miss Bonnie md.com and again you can listen to Bonnie on The Hip Hop hustle podcast you can a few times a month is that right.

Bonnie Koo, Md: 
[28:49] Your words were a me for twice a month at this point as you know as a podcast yourself it’s difficult to coordinate,
across time zones across a few times on she’s two hours behind me and she has a daughter and obviously a husband and you just a coordinate with schedules and my fiance start to feel left out,
all the time I spend on this.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[29:13] Yeah yeah it’s true but it’s it’s well worth your listen and I think you know.
Justin Moore we can kind of become aware of these topics the better off we it we we all will be well thank you Doctor Who for participating in the doctor Money Matters podcast and we look forward.
To seeing what’s new with your blog and learning and kind of checking in with you down the line as you as you pursue Financial Independence.

Bonnie Koo, Md: 
[29:38] Thanks so much for having me.

Dr. Tarang Patel: 
[29:40] I want to thank my guest Bonnie Koo MD for appearing on the show and thank her for contributing to the.

[29:47] Increased awareness of financial matters facing all Physicians encourage you to check out her blog at.

[29:55] Www. Miss Bonnie md.com and listen for her appearances on the Hippocratic hustle podcast as well.

[30:04] Was thank you for continuing to subscribe to this podcast and if you haven’t done so please leave a positive review on iTunes Stitcher Spotify wherever you receive your podcasts from.

[30:18] And continue to share it with your colleagues and anyone you think would benefit from these type of discussions I also encourage you to.

[30:28] Join our doctor Money Matters Facebook group where we have discussions amongst the other members about different Financial topics and also you can follow me on Twitter at Dr Money Matters.

[30:40] More episodes are coming soon so please continue to subscribe to the show.

Doctor Money Matters Ep 17: 
[0:00] Hello and welcome to the doctor Money Matters podcast the show where we discuss important Financial topics that would never covered in med school I’m your host dr. tarang Patel.

Tarang Patel — Intro Outro: 
[0:16] I want to wish everyone a Happy New Year sorry for the long Gap in episodes but I’ve been trying to promote the show a little bit more on various social media Outlets so.

[0:28] Please share the podcast with your friends colleagues and students it’s pretty easy to do particularly if you listen to it on the Apple podcast app where if you press the button with three little dots near the middle of the screen you can share it via.

[0:43] Text message Facebook WhatsApp Twitter however you want to share it.

[0:49] I recorded a bunch of podcast that I’ve been that haven’t been released yet so I’ll be releasing.
Those more frequently and will let you know via the Facebook group or Twitter or.
Any of my other social media Outlets when the episodes are out and I have some great guests scheduled to record soon including.

[1:09] Physician on fire and also an updated 2018 tax episode with Anjali jariwala who’s on our podcast previously discussing taxes in general.

[1:21] A couple things I want to mention before I start the interview with dr. Valerie Jones I wanted to address Bitcoin fever.

[1:30] Cryptocurrency is super hot right now and congrats to those who’ve made money or lots of money on its recent massive appreciation.
In my opinion I think the blockchain is revolutionary and will change the way we conduct business.

[1:48] No one coin is particularly more impressive than others and no one is established to mainstream a Bitcoin have been around the longest and has a little bit more recognition.

[2:00] There is no limit on what the number of coins are different types of cryptocurrencies that can be introduced and therefore no one knows if any of the current coins will be the ones that’ll be.

[2:12] I used as a mainstream type of business there may be room for many of these coins to.

[2:18] To work in in their own niches but I’m not sure that all of them will continue to hold the value that they currently have.

[2:25] I remember Mania Mania can be a good thing in terms of making a lot of money ask me ask Mark Cuban who sold broadcast.com in 1999 to Yahoo near the peak of the.
Dot-com bubble obviously you can also lose a lot of money so so just just be careful.

[2:44] In regards to the new tax changes most Physicians should see.

[2:52] Some increase in take-home pay although if you’re on the the coasts or an estate with the relatively High property tax burden you may.

[3:02] You may break even to in some small percentage may even pay a little bit more but for the most of you I would say continue to.

[3:12] Save more and use the tax savings to pay down any additional debt or a no increase your investment allocation.

[3:22] On a side note I was recently in a bit of a Twitter battle with an idiot Economist who Advocates slashing physician salaries.
As a way to reduce healthcare costs he wanted to bring in a significant number of foreign doctors and not that there’s anything wrong with foreign doctors but he wanted to bring in Doctors Without.

[3:45] Without requiring them to do any additional residency training as a way to bring down costs in my opinion this is short-sighted.
As positions salaries are only a small percentage of healthcare costs maybe about 8% and by increasing the number of doctors even by.
Doubling them you’re not going to do reduce the total cost of salaries on Healthcare you’ll just increase the number of people getting.

[4:10] The salaries.

[4:13] But regardless this type of idiot is a influential in policymaking and this is the kind of pressure that we’re going to continue to face in regards to Bringing Down health care costs.

[4:27] Savings and increasing your the speed at which you Achieve Financial Independence is going to be even more Paramount.

[4:34] So this brings me to Our Guest today dr. Valerie Jones in OBGYN physician who retired from medicine at the young age of 37.

[4:44] I’m not advocating retiring to any of you even if you Achieve Financial Independence but.

[4:49] With continued pressures that we face in healthcare and continued.

[4:56] Calls from idiots like this economist we’re going to have pressure and achieving Financial Independence sooner rather than later.

[5:04] Will make your life easier on with the show.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[5:11] Okay welcome to another episode of the doctor Money Matters podcast I guess today is.
Doctor Valerie Jones who writes on her own website OB doctor mom.com a lot of people have been talking about her article on Kevin MD where she wrote about retiring from her OB-GYN practice at the young age of 37.

[5:31] Doctor Jones welcome to the podcast.

Valerie Jones, Md: 
[5:34] Thank you thanks for having me on my site is to do it today.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[5:37] Alright I said just tell me a little bit about your background and where you went to med school and residency why you went into OBGYN.

Valerie Jones, Md: 
[5:45] Sure grew up actually in the South so and Louisiana,
for a good portion of my childhood but then moved to Virginia at the end of high school and so then go to the east coast girl for a while now went to medical school in Virginia at Eastern Virginia medical school and then residency,
I did at Johns Hopkins for OBGYN that was one of those people who always knew that I was going to be a physician.
Started out from as early as I can remember 5 years old saying I want to be an OB I want to deliver babies I got for some reason I just knew and I don’t know why I don’t I don’t have,
Terrence that are Physicians is not really something that I was around a whole lot I mean my father was an officer in the military he was in a medical type of career but he’s not a physician but it was just something that was always there,
and so he didn’t even all throughout high school and college that was always my plan and you would have wanted to do and I kind of set it at that to go to medical school and then.
OBGYN what’s the plan to and so you know when you go through,
third year of medical school rotations and everything else he is a few other things like radiology and neurology and I’m really stuck with me as much as OBGYN dead and so is kind of my past the whole way through and I got to tell you I definitely never had gone into this expecting to retire at 37 that was never my,
my plan was not what I had wanted to do and I want to make that very clear that you know if you want to retire early and you don’t,
going to Medicine looking to do that medicine realize that but I think maybe.
Other people don’t you know it’s just not a good way to do it if that’s your goal but life happens and that’s where I am now and it’s nice how it all worked out in the end.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[7:17] Yeah it’s funny you mention that school going through those rotations I kind of similar experience except that OBGYN was the first one I crossed off the list when I.

Valerie Jones, Md: 
[7:24] That is for a lot of people it’s like it’s either love it or hate it and I get it there’s a lot of good things behind it but there’s a lot of tough things as well too so.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[7:34] Absolutely absolutely you retired at a very young age so why.

Valerie Jones, Md: 
[7:45] Yeah so it was a couple of reasons.
The last several years I become a little bit more disillusioned with how Healthcare in general has been going I wrote about 11 the article that you mentioned on Kevin MD about how I’ve become pretty frustrated with how Physicians are kind of last on the list of,
actually dictating how Healthcare goes and we want to be advocates for patients in a lot of times we’re not able to do that and so,
getting pretty frustrated also with OBGYN it’s not an easy,
specialty have late hours and lot of call a lot of staying up all hours of the night now practice is a.
The concern of mine I never was sued you know it luckily but there was always something that was in the back of my mind in the back of everyone’s mind not just OBGYN but,
I think even more so in our field when things go poorly Haitian they would sometimes want to have an answer but they want to feel Vindicator have something.
But this really to blame but if you have a bad outcome for a baby that’s a tough,
tough thing to go through and so I think we see lawsuits more in our field even when all standards of medicine were carried through there was no.
There was really no language and sometimes the lawsuit will happen anyway and so then for Physicians to go through that is very stressful and I think everyone in OBGYN is really feeling that stressed there has been a whole lot done to kind of help us.
Out in that room so that was a part of it and then also you have 3 kids certainly was missing a lot with them but being on a very busy schedule,
and so and then I also had a health scare and that was actually what was the kind of Tipping Point for me.

[9:16] And I look back at it now is it being one of the best things that ever happened to me because you’re working and you’re working and you see your family when you can and you’re just going you don’t actually say stop,
let me see this is what I want to be doing with my life is this,
really am I in a good spot right now I might am I doing the things I want to is it it’s a silly me I so when I had this house scare it really stopped me in my tracks and I took a step back and I said.
What am I doing and why am I doing this and I think what happened was that my husband I actually became financially independent or we’re realizing that.

[9:56] We could actually both retire at this point if you wanted to and that’ll happen at the same time that I had the health scare and so it was kind of like a no-brainer at that point I said well.
I don’t need to be working now so why am I doing this and it’s at the right thing right now for myself or my family of the way the healthcare environment is so I really want to be doing this and so I needed to step away and inside retired and I don’t know that I’ll ever go back,
but honestly I’ll Never Say Never because,
foolish to think it’s foolish to say you’ll never do something because who knows I’m 37 I don’t think so though I don’t.
Been enjoying myself quite a bit since November when I retired and so that’s not the plan as of now.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[10:35] Okay you were seven years those residency right when you retired.

[10:40] Okay so how did you go about I mean just being a financial podcast how did you go about becoming.
Financially independent so quickly I mean that most most people from Medical School have loans that they’re paying off for it for such a long time. What what kind of steps did you take to increase.
The speed at which you were able to become financially independent.

Valerie Jones, Md: 
[11:01] Yeah you’re absolutely right I mean the amount of debt that medical students in Kearney I was just enormous and so it was a little bit different for everybody has their own story for me which seem to work for me,
was a couple of things one you know I didn’t have somebody pay my way through medical school so of course I had loans like everyone else.
But my medical school loans were probably less than average I would say just being completely transparent I think my medical school loans were about a hundred and thirty thousand and so that was you know because I didn’t take out for extras.

[11:32] People will because someone they have to but also a lot of time so I can see my friends taking out a lot of extra loans for,
vacation living expenses during medical school and I get it you know you want to have fun too but I was really really Frugal during medical school I mean. Do it didn’t go out a whole lot,
you know I just really kept the very minimum of what I could do a very small apartment and I got married the first year medical school and so my husband at the time did have a job he was just out of college though and so it wasn’t a high-paying job by any means but at least that way we didn’t have to take out.

[12:05] Loans for living expenses I certainly we couldn’t afford to pay for a tuition and so that was one thing that helped,
is the start out with a relatively low balance compared to what,
do a physician income senior with they’re coming out with and just having to do just tuition alone and we also were able to lock in I think it was 2.7 for the interest rate.
Lucky or not since that it happened at that time frame where I had to go to a good rate so that was something else I was going in my favor so that was the first that was keeping my medical school loans as it slow as I possibly could and locking a good rate.

[12:40] And then after that,
yeah right after Medical School residency lay loans are in forbearance initially but then as soon as I was able to start paying off those loans I would do it at the maximum that we could and not just the minimum that they would say oh this is what you have to do and so that was a big factor as well.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[12:59] Right I think that’s a key point because like you said you had to do a limb come during residency in a lot of people especially when they’re single or you know are mostly just.

[13:08] Not able to do much during residency except for the bare minimum so that’s definitely an advantage on your part that you were able to do that and definitely contributes to you know getting financially independent much quicker so.

[13:21] That’s very good.

[13:22] So let me ask you this now you know you’ve talked about retiring and you wrote this so you know the article what kind of feedback have you gotten from other Physicians have you gotten from your car.
When you were you know announcing you the are when you told him that you’re going to retire.

Valerie Jones, Md: 
[13:38] Truck I think honestly I was the first reaction you know I think that.

[13:45] I think there’s some people were really happy for me I think they were my friends and they know kind of where I was coming from and some of the actually the older Physicians were the ones who were shocked I got a whole lot of different reactions some people’s are like you’re crazy why are you doing this you’re not going to have enough money to live off of,
for however many class years until your 90 years old and you have 3 kids who’s going to pay for all of their.
But I think you know we did a lot of stuff’s besides what I initially talked about that kind of kept us in a good spot and so but I heard the whole gamut and I’ve heard some people even now. There are some people will say some pretty hateful things but.
I did I do not to just brush him off his fight over is entitled to their own opinion and I did listen to them but I don’t really know internalize it too much but it’s some people have brought up the question of is it all that schooling and you know it.
To just not work anymore after 7 years is that is that a circle you know and so I kind of view.
Maybe that matter bakeries with me but you know I view it as I paid for my education granted and you get a residency salary when you’re working in residency but.
We’re pretty much underpaid as you know anybody’s ever done residents he knows you’re getting minimum wage to do,
a lot could not function without Residence Inn so I think really the girls getting a pretty good deal with that so I don’t,
actually feel bad about that and so do I have to live my life the way someone else dictates that I do know I don’t think I do.

[15:18] And I put in all that time will that’s my time maybe.
How much was that wasted I have no regrets for doing medical school and residency in putting in all those years in at that time it’s really what I wanted to do at that time is what I want and how I want to serve.

[15:31] GNC and it just life happens sometimes and it changes and so I think the whole.

[15:36] Toy. I wanted to make about this is it’s great to be in a position where if your life does changing you want to take those different steps then at least the finances can be an order so that you can do that and not feel trapped,
in a situation where you don’t want to be your a job that’s not working for you or you know that malpractice concerns have gotten to be too stressful for whatever reason and so I think that was more of what I try to focus on and not worry too much about the negatives.
Comments that people making.
You know I don’t take it personally but I’m just trying to maybe like you said get this information out there to help maybe some other presidents who are just,
starting an in women too and I appreciate you having me on because there’s just not a lot of women Physicians that are out there talking about this they’re starting to be and I think women are and interests in finances we want to take control of our finances we can it’s just it hasn’t.
In the past been a focus I think we’re getting there now and so it’s another thing to that has,
comments about you just a state are you a housewife now they mean if anybody can do that right so I will know it’s not exactly that it would be if I said we’re totally living off my husband salary now and I decided to become a stay-at-home mom.
Usher Yeah but that’s not exactly how it went we’re at the point now where either one of us or both of us could retire my husband does still,
could use work right now I don’t know for how much longer but because he enjoys it and so if he enjoys it and why you should he have to stop that doesn’t take anything away from.
Kind of calling it retirement because we’re at a point where we both could or we didn’t need to work to support our children and in our future but there’s absolutely I think nothing wrong if he wants to continue to work fine if he can do it on his terms and leave us he ever wanted to.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[17:15] Right I think that’s exactly what you described.

[17:19] The goal for this podcast and and a lot of other resources that are starting to come available.

[17:25] Is for Physicians to reach independent it doesn’t mean you have to retire early or any other field for that matter but just securing that independent allows you choices that.

[17:35] Previously you know there were no it wasn’t a choice you had to work now you have the choice and which direction you choose to go with it is ultimately up to you and you don’t have to answer to anyone but yourself.
I read some of the comments that were on your website and I’m sure on the Kevin MD sidestepping but that even a ton more unfortunately people do tend to attack positions little bit I think.
Today I was just reading an article on doximity where I came over who wrote it but efficient talked about.

[18:04] All these other positions have been recently talking about physician burnout and stuff like that and basically said that you know instead of just talking about it fix it do something stop.
Came off that and I think that’s you know that that that’s really unhelpful doesn’t really it’s in contributes more to the toxic environment that that is out there.
Then helping anything just telling us to stop whining.

Valerie Jones, Md: 
[18:27] Yes I agree with you 100% that’s not destructive whatsoever.
And I think by talking about it we are contributing to you know hopefully making some change and that’s that’s why I’m talking about is not just to complain or whatever you know socially about the retirement piece,
that but you know it is hopefully it will be helping other people the one thing that I think helped us the most 100% from the financial aspect,
was living off of one salary that’s one thing I didn’t mention earlier and that was huge for us and I think most Physicians that I know it must have a spouse that works now I know that’s not the case for all positions but it actually I think is quite common now to be a dual physician,
family or to have.
Who is the wife in the husband or the spouse working and in these cases and so I think it’s not unreasonable then people consider that option I know a lot of people do it after talking with friends and other colleagues most people don’t live off of 1 salary and it is,
that’s the way we really did it if you want to know what I think is the real reason,
I so we look off my salary and saved even off of mine to in anything that my husband made immediately went to debt repayment investing in Saving none of it we didn’t even look at it as a salary never even looked at it and so that was really the biggest part I think.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[19:44] Yeah yeah that’s right I think that’s really it’s it’s true and particularly a lot of positions come out of.
Training and yeah we have all worked very hard and we almost feel like we’re entitled to.

[19:56] You know spend a little bit and I I can’t argue with that point but it doesn’t but you just have to realize that if you do that.

[20:02] That you even are you just going to be delaying Independence in and that’s a choice that positions ate themselves but.

[20:08] A lot of times it just kind of doing it out of your not really thinking and I feel like now getting that knowledge out there look at that you were doing and several other people out there are doing at least let them think about it because before I was just like well you.
You know now attending it’s time to finally live after all these years of sacrificing so.

[20:26] I think that’s really good advice living off of one income is is great and you know I mean tremendous three that you were able to have that inside at an early age so that’s.
That’s great nobody asked you when did you actually first think about it retiring and then when did you actually retire what was it take me through the time span that you tell me the time span the mechanics of how you calculated these numbers things like that.

Valerie Jones, Md: 
[20:48] Well that’s I think a big part of a good thing that you mentioned actually because the numbers we’d always been keeping track of and that’s something I think most people should do is just know what your.
Your spending is your savings are assets in her in to try but we have a huge spreadsheet,
they were constantly updating we’ll get together about every 6 months or so and really see okay where are we with how are doing financially and where’s our money going what’s coming in what accounts do we have in so that really helped keep us on track for just knowing where everything was going and so.

[21:17] I wasn’t really planning on retiring I was like I had said getting a little bit more dissolution of the last couple of years but had it plan on retiring until the healthcare happen and that was just a year ago.
So it pretty quickly after that I’d say about a month after it happened I am doing some thinking and.
And I just realized I’m just going to go ahead and do this but then of course I gave advance notice and and so I was a salaried employee position and so.
I gave my 90 days notice I actually offered I could stay on a little bit longer doing things here and there but I definitely wasn’t going to be full-time or even.
You’ll have time but basically it was pretty much done after about 3 or 4 months from when I gave my notice trying to give it to my colleagues little bit of time to kind of prepare.
But yeah it would happen pretty quickly I would say but by that time we already know in the numbers you know we had already been keeping track and so we knew that.
Thanks actually look pretty good and so I said well we can do this and so you went ahead and decided to do that one thing that I think is going to be the biggest,
problem though for somebody retiring early it especially at my age and if my husband does the next couple of years we’ve got a lot of years of paying for health insurance,
and so that’s a huge.
Part of it but we we added that into our spreadsheet you know how much is a you don’t know we really don’t know what health insurance is going to cost but you make your best bet you aim for probably will higher than it would cost and you put me up.
Softer than some calculations which I think of everything we thought of what I know we have to.

[22:40] Tell the kids with her insurance when their teenagers will it be a sports programs for the next however many years every last little detail was put into this huge spreadsheet to try to really figure out,
what are expenses will be in multiply that by how many years were going to need that that money and really figure it out that way.
And so just knowing the numbers really helps and to keep track of things really important I think.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[23:02] Okay I’m not going to ask you specific numbers but if you can give me an idea in terms of your annual expense. The dollar amount but let there’s a rule of thumb that says.
You should have 20 times your annual spending stuff like that is there a number that you guys got to in terms of a multiple of your annual spending and you already said you were you know you spend on one person’s income but just kind of how did you.

[23:23] Get to that number.

Valerie Jones, Md: 
[23:25] Brian probably.

[23:27] 30 times and I’m spending we do live pretty frugally I would say both of us are kind of have the same mindset as good vacations every year but.
Wit Rob expanders I guess either one of us we actually we don’t do private school for our children which is another big one I think.
Oh at rages and so we had to have that benefit as well as having Public School far we’re all 3 kids we live in an area where the public schools are,
some of the best in the country and so we’re taking advantage of that,
and so that’s a part of it as well and so it’s all about choices like you said some people say Macy’s worth it to them to pay for private school board maybe they want to have that big house right out of residency and so it’s just everybody has their own decision about what’s more important to them for us we were fine with public school we are both.
Products of public school we are happy with it you know an in so those are our decisions and that’s one of things where you had mentioned before people wants to get out of residency they feel like they just need to get out there and then spend that attending salary and I get it yeah I was there too.

[24:26] Tired you’ve been delaying this forever you want to spend some money and so you know it did a little bit but then we almost made a mistake of.
Becoming house poor as I would call it a.
Did you see that waiting to tell me I know you’re finally going to jump to a salary that’s like 5 times what it was a year ago and you wanted to get that big house because they’ll give it to you they’ll give you a loan for it and you can get the mortgage for it but we decided not to do that in and get what we need it was just a nice house but not like the.
You know that mcmansion that we probably could have we can do it we said you know we’re just we don’t need that and we didn’t feel the need to keep up with anyone else and you know prove anything and so I think that helps a little bit too.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[25:03] And some of it is you know that you’re you’re able to do it successfully I think a lot of Physicians tend to hang out with other Physicians and there seems to be a little bit of you know.
Eraser you know it’s hard to keep that.
You said an ellipse like you were you know you sound like you’re able to do it very well but I think hanging out with other Physicians tends to be detrimental to your financial.

Valerie Jones, Md: 
[25:26] Yes I think so.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[25:36] You know so you said you don’t want to go back to work is it as it OB.
Do you see a time where you going to be doing something in terms of doing this blog do you see yourself kind of going in that realm creating some sort of programs for other Physicians things like that.

Valerie Jones, Md: 
[25:52] Yeah it’s a great question I think I realized after being out for a little bit now is it’s probably like a lot of positions that are Taipei is.
Kind of hard not to do something you know and so sure I have three kids and I spend a lot of time with them and so that’s my biggest Focus right now however you’re right I’m started blogging which I never thought I would do I had no interest in that whatsoever but,
hey here it is and so that’s the beauty of being retired is that I have this opportunity now to explore,
other interests and so yes I’m going to explore that for now I’m going to do some riding I’m doing some little bit of work with doximity now and contributing articles for them and so.
All these opportunities I started to present themselves and and I’m able it’s being a position I would say okay I’ll try it and you know and see where it goes and so I think I will be doing something I don’t know.

[26:39] But not necessarily I will be doing it trying to get a salary out of I’ll be doing it if it’s something I’m passionate about her,
or something that you know that I had that I want to pursue in this so that is why I want to be a physician Advocate that is something that I’m passionate about and I’m kind of happy that,
I’m in this position now to be able to do that especially for my OBGYN colleagues I’m trying to get the word out it’s just it’s just not sustainable how it is and there’s going to be a huge physician shortage coming so people are retiring early from OBGYN for when there’s just going to be a mass shortage of Ob-Gyn says coming and so,
I still have enough Iron Maiden yet leaving recently that I want to keep advocating for my colleagues and so I’m going to keep doing that and so hopefully the blog will be a forum for that.
When writing other articles and so kind of steak entrenched with the medical community but maybe not prefer C clinically this point.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[27:31] Right yeah I just thought of this while we were talking but it annoys some of the other OBGYN that take out a popular thing for OBGYNs was to you no cut the OB part of the practice and DO gynecology only it was that something you thought about in terms of slowing down or where you pretty much like I’m just you know.

[27:48] This is it I’m done.

Valerie Jones, Md: 
[27:49] I was pretty much like this is it I’m done,
but know that is absolutely true that’s a very common for OBGYNs to cut the OB part because that’s the tough part.
Doing the deliveries up all night malpractices the concern,
type of medicine where they’re having OBGYNs in the hospital for 24 hour shift so the whole the whole field is changing so it’s going to be interesting to see how we’re going to able to handle that was a shortage of physicians in the next 5-10 years.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[28:27] One other question I had for you are you you were talking about the numbers and you and your husband were in a pretty intelligent about the way you guys.
Matters just throughout the course of your local school residency things I got did you use a financial advisor or you were you guys doing this on your own.

Valerie Jones, Md: 
[28:42] I would say.
How much on our own yeah my husband does have a little bit background in finance and so he was able to help guide some of this most of it and least with getting us on the right track but no we do not have a.
Financial advisor currently I just look at the fees and everything else now and like I’m learning so much about finances now that I’m actually retired and so I’ve actually learned quite a bit about the financial advisors and right now I don’t see the.

[29:08] I thought I would ever use a financial advisor for me personally but I think maybe for people who are in residency and just getting started maybe somebody to help them kind of guide them but still.
Looking out and make sure that they’re learning enough to really know what’s going on with their money and not just going to blindly but a financial advisor lead them it’s kind of how I do it now.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[29:27] Okay well good the last thing I was going to talk to you what it what is your advice to other Physicians who are who are feeling some of the effects of burnout.

Valerie Jones, Md: 
[29:37] Well I feel like you know I think it’s going to get better I really do.

[29:42] I think that it’s starting to become public now and you are paying attention and that this is a real problem positions are people you know they’re there real people who are working hard most decisions have.

[29:53] The best intentions at heart I think I think you hear the sensation I stories about these.
These doctors that are doing terrible things but they are so few and far between I mean I think most of us know every we are colleagues and people we work with it’s just not the case for almost 98% of all Physicians you ever out there to do good for patients,
we care about our patients but we’re human beings and so I think that’s the biggest part of it and so forth for people who are you know burning out and one I would say.

[30:21] And I don’t really like to turn burn out because it makes it sound like there’s a problem with the position and and their ability to react to how things are going I actually think it’s more of a problem with the system and so I think that you know that.

[30:35] They should realize that it’s not a problem with them it’s a problem with the system and their you know they should try to get help if they’re having a lot of difficulty and try to figure out if it’s not working for you try to figure out a way to change things maybe cut back on hours or.
Unified something that’s more that you get more satisfaction out of your career and to get your finances in order.
You need to make a change to do it so you can do it comfortably not have to worry or feel trap.

Tarang Patel, Do: 
[31:00] Right absolutely.
But I think it’s great and I’m glad you were able to come on this this show and discuss your story and I hope that our listeners will get you know get some good information out of it I’m sure they will and I really like her description of burnout talking about it’s not.
You’re not the problem it’s the system I think that’s so true but as as Physicians most of us you know we feel that like you said that type A personality and you know it’s a go go go type of thing and you ultimately feel like.

[31:27] It’s your fault will your you’re absolutely right that this system is unsustainable in it and it will it will wear down on anyone if you’re allowed to so I really appreciate you you could have.
Describing it in that way I want to thank you for coming on the show and I want to encourage our listeners to check out your blog at OB doctor mom.com.
And I know you talked about topics related to Medicine motherhood the some of the financial aspects.
I encourage them to check that out and and thank you very much for coming on the show.

Valerie Jones, Md: 
[31:57] Got thank you so much for having me it was nice talking with you.

Tarang Patel — Intro Outro: 
[32:03] Thank you dr. Jones for appearing on the podcast it’s been a long while since we recorded this episode and I appreciate her patience with me.
For the long time gap before it was released.

[32:15] I hope she continues to encourage you guys to maintain a high savings rate to allow Financial Freedom sooner.

[32:23] Please consider joining our Facebook group doctor Money Matters where we discussed many of these Financial topics and please continue to subscribe to the podcast and to leave positive reviews for the show or any other podcasts to listen to.
The more 5 Star reviews you get the better the show ranks on the Apple podcast algorithm and the more it can be accessible to other people who would would find it useful so thank you for those of you who left the five star reviews.
And please if you haven’t left to review I encourage you to do so for this podcast and for other podcasts to listen to.

[32:59] And also remember to check out dr. Jones website OB doctor mom.com and listen for our next episode coming out soon.

Doctor Money Matters Ep 17: 
[33:21] For those of you still listening what do you think of the change of music.

[33:25] Hit me up on Twitter at Dr Money Matters or on Facebook and tell me if you think this is a better type of music or you want to hear some other type of intro and outro music thanks.